How do bad tradespeople stay in business?

Wanderer2010

I was unlucky enough recently to have had an awful time dealing with a so called reputable gas installation company. Everything from Day 1 was hassle. The job took too long, they didnt clean up afterwards and ive had them back 4 times to fix the mess they left behind, the last time i had to call into their office as they were ignoring me. They were rude and loud when doing the job and its safe to say i will not only never use them again, i also wont recommend them to anyone else. Ive since talked to a few people who said they were horrified by their lack of professionalism.

Now i would have thought in a tiny dot like Ireland your reputation is king. I looked at reviews of their company and nothing but glowing accolades (admittedly some could be from family) and i was just left thinking what the actual fcuk???

How is it some awful businesses and tradespeople can have such a high client list and no shortage of work year after year when they dont know their ar$e from their elbow? Is it that Irish people arent good at being assertive? Or do these people just use the gift of the gab and brush any complaints away as just one difficult person? Maybe people dont care about shoddy service? Politics...family members or connections linked to the family so nobody rocks the boat.

I would like to hear some theories on this as to me its a pure head scratcher. Common sense states bad work = no reputation and eventually no work!

is_that_so

It seems there is a complaints procedure that you could pursue. Bad Google reviews are another way to vent your ire.

https://rgii.ie/support/gas-installation-complaint/

dotsman

For me, I have always asked the same question of tradesmen in small towns/villages, where everyone knows everyone, and a "bad job" would be heard about by everyone. So I assume tradesmen in such an environment have to (at the very least) do an "ok" job (but I hear stories!)

But in cities, and especially Dublin, cowboys rule supreme. Of all the tradesmen I've had over the years, the majority have done a poor service, and some have been an absolute disgrace. But I have no ability to "spread the word". Thus, while they will obviously get no repeat business from me, they can simply move from customer to customer, with none of their bad history every following them. There is, ultimately, an infinite supply of new customers.

What is ultimately needed is a (small) national agency. This agency would maintain a registry, where all tradesmen are registered (and licensed) and have proof of insurance etc. They would also maintain a relatively simple website where:

• Customers can post their request for jobs and tradesmen respond/quote.
• Customers can see the tradesmen's ratings, along with their entire history of job (every single job they have done, along with reviews from corresponding customers). Likewise, the Tradesmen can see the Customer history and what reviews they have left for tradesmen in the past.
• Once a Customer agrees to go with a particular Tradesman, full details of the job (including photos etc), dates and estimates for materials and labour etc are documented on the website. Likewise, if any aspect of the job is being "subcontracted", that particular tradesman's profile is also assigned to the job and the Customer agrees. The job is now "insured" by the agency (i.e. they will be the ones to intervene and resolve if there are any issues).
• Customers pay, in advance, the quoted amount, with any outstanding balance/refund settled after the job.
  • This protects tradesmen against fraudulent customers who have them do a job and then refuse to pay/bouncing cheques etc.
• This payment is broken into "cost of materials" while is transferred to the tradesman straight away, while the "cost of labour" portion is held in escrow by the agency until 28 days after the job has been marked as complete, before being transferred to the tradesmen.
  • This protects the customer as the tradesman is not paid until 28 days after the customer is satisfied (or not at all if the job was done poorly). And, while the tradesman gets the fund for materials straight away, they must upload receipts/invoices etc for those materials prior to marking the job as complete on their end.
• Once the tradesman believes everything has been completed, they mark the job as "complete" and updates the final amount (which maybe more or less than the estimate/quote, and if so, details as to why it was different), along with receipts/invoices for materials (ensuring they didn't just re-use second hand/defective/cheap materials).
• The Customer is then given 28 days to confirm that they are happy (default) or not. During this time, any snags etc should be addressed by the tradesman, with a "Hold/Dispute" being registered if they are still not happy after 28 days.
• If happy, Customer leaves a review for the tradesmen, including photos where appropriate, rating them (out of 5) on time-keeping, professionalism and quality of work (giving an average 5 star rating for the overall experience).
• Just like with eBay or many other online retailers, the "tradesman's rating" is an average rating of all the jobs they have done
• If unhappy, Customer can escalate after 28 days (or more urgently in specific cases, such as safety issues with Gas/Electric (or there is a complete breakdown in communication/relationship between parties). This involves the Customer paying a small amount (say €100?) to be held in escrow for an inspectors review. An "Inspector" (a second tradesman specifically recognised by the agency for their reputation/quality) reviews the job. Where the Inspector finds that the customer is unreasonable, then the job is marked as complete and the €100 is paid to the inspector. Where the Inspector finds in favour of the customer, the tradesman must A) immediately resolve in a time deemed appropriate to the Inspector and B), the tradesman must pay the €100 to the inspector (and the customer is refunded their €100). If the tradesman does not resolve according to the inspector's (short) timeline and (high) quality, the agency keeps the money held in escrow for labour and gives the job to a separate tradesman which the agency pays for (even if it involves new material and/or tearing everything down and starting over etc).
• Where a tradesman's rating falls below a certain threshold, or where an inspector reports on a particular job where the tradesman was woefully unskilled/unprofessional etc, the tradesman is suspended for a period of time and must pass certification etc before being relicensed.
• Likewise, problematic customers (e.g. where they have made a number of disputes that the Inspector ruled against them) are also flagged, so tradesmen know to avoid.
• For new tradesmen registering with the agency, just like it is with apprenticeship, their profiles would be linked to a corresponding mentor/experienced tradesman who would oversee their work. Thus they could still compete for work while building up their initial reputation.
• Advertising etc makes it clear to all about the advantages to both customer and tradesmen of going through the agency. For tradesmen, yes it will mean that every job has now very clearly recorded financials, so they will have to pay the correct amount of tax! But, if they are actually good at their job, this will ensure a constant stream of good customers (and potentially higher income as their reputation grows). For customers, they get to truly see the professionalism of tradesmen prior to choosing (and can choose a cheaper 4.2 star plumber over the more expensive 4.9 star plumber if they so wish, or vice versa), along with the guarantee that the job will be done do a very high standard, within reasonable timelines, and with no hidden/unfair additional costs. Any for any customer going outside this agency to look for a tradesman, it is clear that, while it may be cheaper (as the tradesman will do cash-in hand etc) you will be getting a cowboy, and absolutely no insurance/guarantee/redress.

BrianD3

Irish people don't like to "make a fuss" and a lot of us are feckless idiots who do shoddy work and have low standards. If someone is useless in their own job (while no doubt thinking they're "grand") are they going to identify uselessness in a tradesman and avoid him?

Other possible factors are snobbery and people who appear to be proud of being ignorant with regard to practical work. I had several reasonably intelligent work colleagues who couldn't seem to get their heads around checking their car tyres for tread depth. I got asked to do it for them and even when I told them how to do it themselves, they never managed it. I wonder did they think they were getting one over on my by treating me as their little tyre checker. Anyhow, if someone can't or won't check the tread on their own car tyres, are they going to hold a mechanic to account when he does a rubbish job servicing their car.

the_pen_turner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119600470#Comment_119600470

some of that is good but the majority would never work or would drive prices up by 50 % or more with all the paperwork and profit someone else is making

Strumms

Look at the reviews on Google… there is a business local to me and it’s absolutely obvious the reviews or 90% are written by the same person. They are a builder..

not positive reviews, absolutely glowing, similar verbiage used in each, very articulate, eloquent and silver tongued in nature….same spacing and use of paragraphs and bullet points…

ZX7R

Simply most trades are Ltd companies, bad trades take advantage by closing up every few years rereg as a new company, wash and repeat

bad2thebone

I'm in the garden design, maintenance and planting schemes since the early 90's and the amount of job's I've seen that were horrific is more than the amount of job's I've seen that were done with creativity taste and color.

Cowboy's and horticulture graduates planting and designing gardens and landscapes that look like something you'd see outside of a chemical factory or along a motorway. Fillers and plants that outgrown each other.

It looks great when planted out to the untrained eye, but I can picture in my head as the plants mature. It looks like sh1t and there's no inventory done beforehand. The amount of times I've had to fix a garden job done by graduates in the last ten year's is ridiculous. Good for someone like me, but bad workmanship coming from someone who did a degree in horticulture.

The horticulture botanic gardens graduate's and Stiofain Naofa graduate's in Cork seem to come up trump's or people who graduated in the UK at proper horticulture college's with a flare for creativity are trustworthy. But I have yet to see proper work from other graduate's in other colleges with horticulture college courses in Ireland. Whether you take two or four years in horticulture or botany studies it doesn't matter a toss if you've no love or appreciation of plants color and open spaces.

Nothing worse than a sh1tty looking garden. These trades should be regulated.

corner of hells

From my own experience as a self employed tradesman and in a partnership, the biggest difficulty I encountered regularly was individuals wanting the best job done at the cheapest price. Pay peanuts, get monkeys. My price was based on 20 plus years experience, insurance, etc.

I generally gave a quote that was non negotiable, you can provide the materials yourself or I'll source them from wholesalers.

Time and time I heard the shite " my nephew could do it at a cheaper price or my neighbour said he'd beat your price " , that's fine by me , get them to do it.

On a small job , my routine was a third of the quote up front , a third half way through and the final third when the job was completed and everyone was happy.

Potential-Monke

That's it, people want the best but as cheap as possible, and then give out when it's a crap job. Coupled with the old-school mentality that the locality is better off if everyone gets along so let's not say bad things about the useless people. Had it recently with a car dealership, they screwed over my parents and I wanted to go hell for leather into them, but they wouldn't allow me as the dealership is nearby the brothers new bistro and she didn't want them badmouthing the bistro as they were around a lot longer...

It may cost more, but any job should come with a detailed receipt. If the person doing the job won't give you that, send them packing. If you can't afford a proper one, save until you can. Sick to the teeth of listening to people who cut corners then give out about the cut corners. Misery seems to be what people are really after, not satisfaction.

Ush1

The inference being pay more and get a better job? Not for me.

In fact I've got foreign lads to do much better work for cheaper.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119600470#Comment_119600470

So many things wrong with this. I'll just a mention a few.

That scope of bureaucracy and paperwork hoped for here wouldn't be possible if we even agree that its desirable (which I don't) without putting tradesmen out of business by eating up all their work-time

Also there is no way that a government agency would produce a web site in which you could navigate that level of micro-management efficiently. It wouldn't happen.

Another objection: You would be interfering with people's right to access small claims procedures, provided by the local District Court offices, by saying they now have to go through this national agency and accept the decision of a government agent instead.

You can't blacklist 'bad' customers by collecting data on them and 'flagging' it as some sort of bad customer score. There's no way that would be allowed.

Headless_1916

https://www.bbb.org/ should expand to Ireland? :)

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119601439#Comment_119601439

It's not that you found foreign lads to do your job cheaper , you found a price that suited your budget after looking for a couple of quotes.

I know that when I contracted, that when I priced a job , I was successful with 1 to 2 quotes out of every 10 I priced for and occasionally I'd get a job by word of mouth meaning that roughly 8 potential customers felt I was to expensive.

Now and again I'd sub contract a job out to an acquaintance if I was busy and vice versa, I'd take a contract off another contractor.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119601279#Comment_119601279

It may cost more, but any job should come with a detailed receipt. 

A wait what now? These days, is anyone actually willing to give you a detailed receipt, unless they add on 20-25% to their "that was a cash quote, pal" figure, and then stick on another 13.5% for VAT?

barneygumble99

Moved into my first house 4 years ago in a new area. Second hand house we knew needed a few jobs done , that was grand. Went through three plumbers , two painters and three electricians before we got people who came when they said they’d come , did what we asked them to do and did it right first time. The ones we had and didn’t ask back, will never step inside our front door again. The guys we were more than happy with, got paid the day the work was done and will happily wait for them for future work, even if its 2 weeks or 2 months before they can come.

We also found a handyman who can do lots of odd jobs that I don’t have time or skill to do like putting a door stopper into a tile, fixing roof slates, adjusting door hinges, replacing window seals etc etc to me he is worth his weight in gold, charges €130 a day and has been here on and off.

The worst guy we had was a painter with great reviews online. His work was ok (finished product) but no better than anyone else. He was the messiest cnut I ever dealt with though, he’d basically leave the house in the evening as if he’d had a call to say his house was on fire. Was also eating food from our fridge, using our teabags , milk etc. he lasted 3 days, asked him what we owed and told him to fcuk off, insisted on a receipt, told us it was a cash quote, kept insisting on a receipt regardless and eventually he gave us one or else he wasn’t getting a cent. Waster

Strumms

People will pay for quality.

if a tradesman/tradesmen say they’ll be here at 10am on Monday I expect them to arrive at 10am

they should do the job as agreed, with quality materials, quality workmanship and quality service…

There is a big shortage of tradespeople….

SEPT 23 1989

Anyone who goes ahead with the cheapest quote deserves to get roasted

upinthesky

Asking to see there qualifications might help, my husband is a qualified cabinet maker and he received a gold card on completion of his trade, his work is excellent so i can only assume anyone who has a gold card must be good at their work, most people don't ask to see trade details of the actual people carrying out the work, most of them not even qualified, now im sure there are excellent trades people that have not gone through college but your really only given them the benefit of the doubt and will only know how good bad they are when the job is done...

Bricriu

I'll tell a story to illustrate what I think is wrong:

The battery in my cordless Bosch hand-drill was nearing the end of its life, so I started to search on-line for a replacement.

I located an outlet in Connacht which sold replacement batteries, and got onto them. They stated it would cost €96 and that they would send it to me on receipt of a payment from me. Didn't ask for any info except the Model of Bosch drill I had.

I had located an outlet in Belgium or Germany (not sure which now) as well, and got on to them; they stated they had replacement batteries but would need all the info and numbers that was on a printed plate on my battery to ensure they sent me the correct one.

I sent that info on and they said that they had such a battery, but to ensure that I received the correct battery, they needed the info on the printed plate on the battery-charger too.

I forwarded that info, and they said it conformed with the battery they would send.

I forwarded the price, including postage, and it was CHEAPER than Paddy the Irishman's price above.

The differences between these two companies include ethics, honesty, responsibility, accountability, serious customer service, and other character features.

Sadly, many Irish businesses don't have many of the good ones, and what is worse, they don't even know they don't have them.

Ironically, I do my best to support Irish business as am a patriotic Irishman, but not when they behave like the above.

MV33

You just need to walk into a new development to see how bad trades people have gotten in all trades.

BrianD3

I've been trying to get a tree surgeon to reduce a few trees on my property without making a bollix of the job. As yet, I've had no success finding someone who gives me the impression that they are qualified and experienced. Actually I've had no luck getting anyone at all (apart from Travellers cold calling wanting to cut the trees, no thanks)

Also, I see tree surgeons, landscapers, roofers, solar panel installers etc on social media posting pictures of their work that sets off alarm bells about health and safety. Other tells too e.g. pics of a UK registered vehicle towing a trailer with an Irish plate on it with broken lenses on the trailer lights. If they are sloppy when it comes to complying with road traffic regulations, what are the chances that they are also going to do sloppy work.

Re: Travellers, they regularly call to the door wanting to cut my trees, one claimed to be a tree surgeon for 20 years and wanted to "top that Ash" - well it's actually a Sycamore and I don't want it "topped" but nevermind that small detail. I wonder do Travellers set the low bar that others then feel compelled to compete with with Joe Public contributing to the problem by giving them work. The flip side of this is, if you are trying to get a legitimate tradesman (who may or may not do good work) to do something and none of them will answer their phone or turn up, you may get desperate and give the work to cold callers.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602148#Comment_119602148

Where's the part about the tradesman being a bollix or brilliant?

I can give you a tip about maintaining batteries for drills , free of charge.

Ush1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119601828#Comment_119601828

No it wasn't, my budget could have went further. My point is, as Warren Buffett said, price is what you pay, value is what you get get. Separate the two.

Ush1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119601994#Comment_119601994

Such an Irish mentality, I don't think I'm getting paid enough so do a shite job. Just don't take the job if you're not gonna do it right. No guns to anyones head.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602565#Comment_119602565

Warren Buffet , quote # 2 . " Did ya ask the foreign lads for quote " , as he he sits on his 90 billion.

I don't understand how they stay going....I'd be owed near on 20K parts alone in nixers,know a few more lads in same position....people in this country just don't pay/drag their heels,and wonder why anyone doing quality work stops,or has to charge through nose to cover emselves

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602598#Comment_119602598

Have to agree with you there. I gave up working for myself years after being sick of trying to get money of fcukers who spent more time telling lies about when they'd pay , or arguing over the final payment or giving some bizarre excuse as to where their money is.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602148#Comment_119602148

So one phone call to Irish business had you sorted and it took 2 or 3 goes for the foreign business to get you sorted yet paddy is the cowboy?

Maybe the Irish business were more clued in with product and knew what you needed.

Sounds like the foreign business was drop shipping it and didn't have a clue about the product and we're just passing numbers to supplier.

Doesn't really sound like you support Irish business at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602616#Comment_119602616

I just stopped calling out etc to em,you'll get some melt who say 'he deosnt turn up/let's ya down'....

Forgetting of course,to say they rang ya at 6pm on a Saturday in a panic to come straight away and owe ya e750 already with a few months

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602199#Comment_119602199

Agree with this. Its very hard to get quality finish in Ireland. They are all speed jobs now.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602711#Comment_119602711

Ah well, you see this is easily explained.

It's the foreign lads fault , cause Irish lads are either too expensive, won't turn up or wouldn't work in a fit.

Esho

Had a load of jobs to get done as i just moved into an old house.

Will use Eastern Europeans for preference over Irish - for price and finish, if i dont have a recommendation from someone.

All jobs were about a fifth cheaper and am really happy with the results.

Apart from one Irish guy who was just outstanding, sound, great price and excellent work - was recommended to me .

I'll never use a traveler again - the ones I used before wanted to cut corners and I had to listen to their bs while they tried it on.

Bricriu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602649#Comment_119602649

Sorted? I think not!

When buying a potentially dangerous product like a rechargeable battery (yes, they can sometimes explode) one should be very careful that the battery not only fits the tool it will power but also that it conforms exactly with the charger.

Paddy the Irishman didn't bother with any of that. I didn't trust him.

The other dealer checked everything to ensure conformity and safety. I trusted him.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603076#Comment_119603076

The biggest risk associated with rechargeable batteries drills is fire from being exposed to a high heat area. The rule of thumb is if you're not using the drill take the battery out.

As for batteries failing , it's cause of the owner not using the drill. People buy drills , use them once or twice a year ,the battery drains and won't hold a significant charge.

Explosion, unlikely, even when left on charge.

Ush1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602592#Comment_119602592

He could be sitting on 900 billion and he would ask the same question.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603076#Comment_119603076

Ah get over yourself. You gave the man the make and model of the drill and he had the battery for it. Likely a genuine one that would have come from factory.

The foreign guy had to do all the extra checks as he was likely selling you a spurious battery.

I really think you are misjudging this one.

Foreign guy was cheaper cause he probably sold you the spurious part.

Of course you will come back now to say it's a Bosch part you got.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119600470#Comment_119600470

Jaysus, you work in the public service or some quango by any chance?

Just DIY and save all the hassle.

Strumms

Just had a gardening redesign at home. Overall job is excellent, very stylish, tidy and vibrant looking…lads worked clean.

Two lads had to work late the last evening having been four there all week… when the job was finished they were short one paving brick… so lad disappears and comes back with the wrong brick… animated conversation between them… then the lad try’s to convince us it’s the same brick, then close enough, then finally agrees, it’s the wrong brick…. 😱😅

nobody would have given a fûck if they just said…. You know we’ll be back Monday, with the correct brick but with craic like that you become sort of hesitant to recommend them, no matter how perfect the job was…

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603835#Comment_119603835

the job wasn’t perfect, They tried to lay a brick a different colour from the rest…

Birdnuts

When I glanced at this thread title I thought it read "How do bad transpeople stay in business"??😒

Ush1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603835#Comment_119603835

They wouldn't get a recommendation because they were gas lighting the customer to finish up the job.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603872#Comment_119603872

I have to be honest, that one brick would annoy the hell out of me too.

I use tradesmen.ie to find tradespeople for small jobs. You can read reviews and leave reviews on that site. So far, it's worked out for me.

Furze99

They do good jobs and bad jobs. Make a few bob on the bad jobs and get a bit of credit on the decent work.

I use a reliable gas company in Dublin, easy to contact, turn up as promised, all work well documented. They have a good network all over the city.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119601606#Comment_119601606

That scope of bureaucracy and paperwork hoped for here wouldn't be possible if we even agree that its desirable (which I don't) without putting tradesmen out of business by eating up all their work-time

Not sure what paperwork you are referring to (just being pedantic, but it would be all digital, so no paperwork at all 😉). What additional time do you think a tradesman would need to spend on this (and how would it put them out of business?)

And why would customer knowing the reputation of tradesmen before they take on their services not be desireable?

Also there is no way that a government agency would produce a web site in which you could navigate that level of micro-management efficiently. It wouldn't happen.

Website design has nothing to do with public or private companies. It is down to good solution architecture and UX Design.

Another objection: You would be interfering with people's right to access small claims procedures, provided by the local District Court offices, by saying they now have to go through this national agency and accept the decision of a government agent instead.

Not only would this be vastly superior protection than the small claims court (in both preventing issues and efficiently/quickly resolving the few issues that do arise), but there is nothing to stop people trying the small claims court if they want (we know the overwhelming majority of people don't).

You can't blacklist 'bad' customers by collecting data on them and 'flagging' it as some sort of bad customer score. There's no way that would be allowed.

It is not a blacklist, simply a customer's history. A tradesman can decide to do what they want with it. There is absolutely a way that would be allowed. It happens all the time. Nobody is saying eBay or the many websites out there that work of reputation. Hell even boards itself does it!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119600587#Comment_119600587

As above, I'm not sure what paperwork you think this would involve. The customer is describing the job and the tradesman provides the quote (and subsequently uploads the receipts. I'm not sure what other admin is involved, and all this is something that a legitimate tradesman is doing anyway.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603765#Comment_119603765

Some people are happy to install new taps, others are not. But very few are capable (or have the time) to install a whole new kitchen/bathroom etc. Nor would most people trust themselves (from a safety perspective, either to their person or to their property) to go messing with gas/electricity/plumbing etc.

But are you seriously suggesting we just get rid of all tradesmen and have everybody DIY?

Also, what hassle are you trying to "save"?

the_pen_turner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604001#Comment_119604001

why would you upload receipts if its a quoted job. the non of their business.

of course there is more work. you have a whole layer of paperwprk extra to deal with along with extra tire kickers and time wasters that come with systems like this

Bad tradespeople stayed in business because so called "reputable" companies use them as subcontractors. Happened to me. I got legal advice after the job.stoll had to pay for botch job.

JL555

I just think it's really hard to find good tradesmen in general. The really good ones are in demand and you need to wait very long periods to get them to do a job. When the job is urgent, people often turn to to whoever they can get, and it may turn out to be a costly mistake. (I've done it so have learned the hard way)

I've had several trades in when doing a renovation. One or two were outstanding, the majority were mediocre to terrible.

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603076#Comment_119603076

This is not difficult information to ascertain. Most chargers charge multiple variations of batteries of different manufacturers. They’re not going to manufacture different chargers for every single battery.