Landlord evictions 1000 in 2nd Quarter due to selling up

handlemaster

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/huge-increase-in-number-of-landlords-who-are-exiting-the-market-41958015.html

some interesting figures in this report. If this trend continues the government will have to give good inventives to keep or attract small time landlords. Love it or hate it a functioning market needs landlords both small and large.

Flinty997

"If this trend continues"

We've had this for decades.

What's more it's exactly what people asked for. Small Landlords to leave the market. Well they are. Job done.

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568179#Comment_119568179

2022 has seen a big increase probably due to covid.

dennis72

Sky news was showing a queue for viewing a house for rent in Dublin it went practically the length of the street

700 places on daft aptly named site in a country of 5m

It a world record AFAIK

The mass exit is market driven but new RTB annual registration rules and more to come will continues to scare the hated small investor.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568362#Comment_119568362

They charged the tenancies rules in 2016. Many will have come up for renewal over the last few years, and with the proposed future changes of never ending tenancies I'd say many are just getting out now while they can and while market prices are at peak.

Donald Trump

It has far more to do with trying to cash out at the "top".

It is ultimately better to flush those out that can't manage the regulations anyway rather than having the government keep pandering to them at the expense of society

dennis72

It's gone way beyond flushing ask anyone in that queue or looking for a place to rent

The skynews clip was an anecdote on how not to destroy a private rental sector

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568665#Comment_119568665

It should have been done long ago rather than continued pandering and supports keeping them there.

If they brought in an 80% CGT on investment residential property, we'd see how many of those amateur landlords currently selling up suddenly forget about these terrible regulations that are "forcing" them to sell

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568726#Comment_119568726

So everyone would be forced to buy or live in social housing .. is that what your after?

dennis72

So no sympathy for the queues and people trying to get a place you selfish twat

Akrasia

It's terrible that all the houses that landlords are selling are being demolished so that nobody can live in them again

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568755#Comment_119568755

Hmmm. Logic apparently isn't your strong point. That is a fairly absurd conclusion. (Even ignoring the irony that many amateur landlords are propped up by social welfare payments that cover most of their otherwise unsustainable rents)

Can you explain to me the necessity to society of you, as a specific individual, owning and collecting rent on a specific house is, as opposed to say Flinty997 (by virtue of being the second poster) owning and renting out that same house in addition to any they might already own?

In what world is 100 people each doing one unit as a sideline better than one person doing the 100 units full time? Do you think that doors would be cheaper if we had one carpenter making 100 doors a week, or if we had 100 amateurs making one door a week as a sideline?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568783#Comment_119568783

Let's solve the crisis by having everyone who owns a house sell it to someone else who can rent it back to them!

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568759#Comment_119568759

There appears to be a marked lack of education across a section of "amateur landlords".

Nobody owes you a living. Make your own choices and get up off your arse and work for it

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568783#Comment_119568783

This old argument is to simple

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568823#Comment_119568823

But it is true

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568795#Comment_119568795

I was asking what your looking for. Still not sure what your ideal market is for property

screamer

Between taxation of rental income and the absolutely ridiculous rules which totally put them on the back foot, the government have just hastened the point of diminishing returns for landlords, who are and will continue to exit in droves. There will always be a need for rental properties and so now tenants will just have to rent from the big investment fund companies, who’ll charge what they like. Well done to the government another wonderful intention which has had the direct opposite effect by poor execution. Idiots.

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568812#Comment_119568812

You can apply that logic to the shop owner who sits at home and has his workers running the shop or any other business. I dont think been a landlord is work free. If it is well why wouldn't everyone do if ?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568831#Comment_119568831

Now you didn't. You attempted to put forward a strawman argument under the false dichotomy that the only alternatives were either owning+social welfare or loads of smalltime amateur landlords.

There are also different forms of social housing btw. It can range from cost-price housing to people paying a peppercorn rent to be housed by the State

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568812#Comment_119568812

Who are you suggesting should get up off their arse and work ? Is it the amateur landlord ? If they haven’t got up off their arse up to now how did they get to own a second ( or maybe third ) property ?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568837#Comment_119568837

It is so unfair and unexpected that they make landlords subject to income tax on their income. I think landlords should be exempt from income tax. And bus drivers too. Not train drivers though. That would be silly. Maybe also solicitors shouldn't have to pay income tax on their income. But barristers definitely should.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568893#Comment_119568893

Step 1: Fill out form at bank for loan.

Step 2: Outbid other buyer for already overpriced house

Step 3: Benefit from massive direct and indirect state intervention when market turns sour

Step 4: profit

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568508#Comment_119568508

The reason they outsourced it to the private market was to save the govt money.

The private market never wanted the business. Which is why they changed the legislation to force the private market to take it on.

You can see the arrears the local authorities have accumulated.

The big investment landlords also mostly avoid the lower end of the market. No one wants that business. Which means the majority of it is with smaller landlords. Which are leaving the market. The big investment landlords are even more profit driven than the smaller ones.

The market is exactly as people (like yourself) wanted it to be. The focus is still on driving supply out of the market. Then wondering why it's so dysfunctional.

screamer

who said they should not pay tax? I didn’t. What I said was that between everything the landlord has to pay/ comply with and have 0 rights when scumbag tenants wreck their property or refuse to pay, who’d want to be a landlord.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568953#Comment_119568953

Hmmm. So how did they "force" the private sector to take it on, yet the "big investment landlords" were able to avoid it? I'd like to see that legislation you refer to if you can provide a link.

The big investment landlords may indeed not want sh1tty one-off in in-homogeneous random properties that are inefficient to manage.

As I've stated on here before, I'd call for the government to stop subsidizing private landlords and artificially inflating the market. Just turn off the taps and let the market find its level based on what people can afford. And also put in a properly enforced vacant property tax.

You have a great imagination there - convincing yourself of how I wanted the market to be!

KevRossi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568783#Comment_119568783

Not sure if this above is sarcasm or not, but I'll explain it from my experience living for years in north Dublin City in an area that was traditionally flatland and bedsit-land. This is all my opinion of course and could be totally wrong.

Many people are cashing in now as they feel house prices are nearing the top. Many bought as buy to lets 15 years ago or thereabouts, spent over a decade in negative equity and can now sell, clear the mortgage and maybe have €50k or more into the bargain. Many bought in the 80's and 90's and missed out on selling in 2006-07 and won't be caught out again. They're looking for the nest egg for their pension or ironically to give their own kids a dig out with buying a house.

So on average 4-6 people are in the houses in this area as they are quite big with various extensions tacked on over the decades. Who is buying them? Well not Buy-to-Let's as they are too expensive and you won't get the percentage return that you used to get. Houses are going for a minimum of €550k and with taxes etc. you won't get the return you want.

So who is buying, (which answers your question)? They're being bought by couples trying to get a family home. So they'll have a couple of kids in the future and start a family. So what was once a home for 4-6 adults (i.e. renters) is now a home for 2 former renters. And so the stock of beds (literally) is dropping by about 60% each time a house is sold.

This is reflected in the 3 and 4 bed semi-D's in newer areas all over Dublin. Doesn't matter if it's Beaumont, Terenure, Stillorgan or Swords. What was a home for 3-4 (or 5 in a Granny flat) renters is now home to 2. Look at the demographics of Rathmines, Ranelagh and Rathgar. Huge flatland up to the 90's, then people started to reconvert the bedsits back into the houses that they once where and suddenly the demographics change there considerably. This is now being done in other areas of the city.

Rental prices are going up for a couple of reasons. There's a huge amount of well educated people coming in here from the EU and working in the service industry. For Google, Microsoft etc. etc. etc. Most of them are on at least €40k a year, many of them earn a lot more. They can afford more so they push the prices up. The rest is greed from landlords, a form of rack renting. But we could argue that's the capitalist system that we work under. Big demand means big price increases. Argue about the morality of it all you want, but it's where we are right now.

Other issues are a lack of housing stock that's been well documented and the types of houses we build. We all want a semi-D or large terrace with a decent size back and front garden. But that's another story. The above though is my experience over the past 15 years in Dublin having watched areas and house prices change as well as having been a renter here since the late 80's.

Flinty997

Time to get popcorn and watch it play out.

Many are leaving before SF get in and lock them into the market.

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568978#Comment_119568978

You're fairly spot on with your analysis. You only need to look at areas such as the North Circular Road. Large three story houses that were divided into eight flats flats or more are being put up for sale and are being renovated into single family homes. Obviously those purchasing have deep pockets, but the point is you are going from having a building accomodating perhaps 16 - 20 people to accomodating 2 - 5 people. Just drive up or down the road and you will see how drastically it has changed over the last few years.

The houses on the NCR are the extreme end of the sacle, but the same is being replicated all over the city on a smaller scale.

dontmindme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568999#Comment_119568999

Where have SF suggested that's what they intend to do?

Ubbquittious

Lol @ the notion of "amateur landlords". As if it's supposed to be the preserve of big megacorps run by people with a Masters in Landlording.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569036#Comment_119569036

Plenty of them on here that don't really appear to be able to cope with some regulations. I'm sure plenty can cope, but those aren't the ones constantly whinging on social media about it.

In what other industry would society be expected to pander to people who can't manage it?

Loads of threads too from tenants with stories of their landlords either doing illegal things or doing basic things incorrectly

Try to comprehend that there can be an in-between between an accidental landlord with no knowledge of how things work and a "big megacorp". If you try hard, you might be able to do it

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569012#Comment_119569012

Almost every time they mention housing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022/08/24/sinn-feins-housing-policy-a-step-backwards/#:~:text=In%20particular%2C%20Sinn%20F%C3%A9in%20propose,member%20to%20occupy%20the%20dwelling.

"...Sinn Féin’s housing policy effectively serves notice to quit on private landlords.."

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569061#Comment_119569061

In other industries they might not crib on social media but instead they do it to politicians at the golf course or on the deck of some yacht and they end up getting what they want.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569080#Comment_119569080

For housing they don't need to. Sure the politicians are all in the same game

Bit cynical

The underlying issue is the overreliance on owner-occupation as the primary mode of accommodation in Ireland for too long. It works most of the time very well, however sometimes as now, the system fails. Currently interest rates are still extremely low but at the same time lending restrictions are still in place from the time of the financial crisis. This means you have a lot of people now trying to rent in an underdeveloped rental market dominated by small amateur landlords and therefore not fit for purpose.

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568858#Comment_119568858

Still no solution coming, only fixated in trying to score imaginary points. Whats the big plan for the housing market 🤔

oceanman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568961#Comment_119568961

plenty in the government it seems...

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569216#Comment_119569216

No the issue is too many people and too little housing being built. Especially in social housing. Private Landlords have got nothing to do with either problem.

KevRossi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569080#Comment_119569080

Most landlords in Ireland don't play golf and have never been near a yacht. Conctituency clinics, funerals, football matches, pints in a pub is where they have the ear of their TD's. Senators and Councillors. And that there's so many Oireachtas members with private property, or who aspire to own property or who have mates who own property, has a bigger influence as well.

The bigger landlords and companies with 100+ properties here are the ones to watch when it comes to serious legislation, selling land at discount prices and generally making the taxpayer pay for their profits.

It's a bit of a mess where plenty of it could be sorted with legislation, both reform of existing and introducing new rules. This along with proper reform and control and proper implementation of all rules and regulations would help a lot going forward. Doubtful it will happen.

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569468#Comment_119569468

Just ignore comments like that there is no substance to them, she is just trolling.

Housing unfortunately is a political football used by all parties. Rules changing all the time to gain votes. If it were fair there would be more rental properties buith and not just by the zero tax paying foreign registration investment funds.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569404#Comment_119569404

Yes, not not enough being built is a problem, but that is also a symptom of the historic over-reliance on owner-occupancy as the main means of accommodation. When the financial landscape shifts, as it has done, money from people taking out mortgages is reduced causing fewer units to be built and there isn't the cushion from a healthy rental sector to take up the slack.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569337#Comment_119569337

I think you are on the wrong thread. This is a thread about landlords selling up. My position was clearly stated as being that most cases are people trying to cash out at the top and that it is no harm to have the ones who cannot cope with regulations flushed out.

Do you regularly apply similar tactics - go to threads and try to create strawmen to score (as you yourself call - perhaps an insight into your own mentality) imaginary points by trying to bring in an irrelevant topic? Because you have nothing of value to contribute to the actual topic?

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569975#Comment_119569975

Again nothing substantive. Assumptions not facts. Try focus on the topic and not the post.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569061#Comment_119569061

"In what other industry would society be expected to pander to people who can't manage it?"

You mean outside of farming?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570041#Comment_119570041

Come back to me in a few months when the food inflation starts to bite. lol

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570025#Comment_119570025

Blah blah blah. Deflect deflect deflect when you are called out on your guff

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569742#Comment_119569742

Historically we built social housing. Imagine the private rental capacity that would be freed up if not taken up by social housing.

If you think we should shift to a model of long term renting instead of buying. How would you attract people to invest in that?

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570155#Comment_119570155

Still waiting for the plan. Will review when you have one.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570564#Comment_119570564

Wrong thread genius. Has been explained to you before.

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570389#Comment_119570389

Cost is the issue. Do you think public sector could build houses cheaper than the private sector ? Public sector with zero accountability would ballon over time.