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Can Sinn Fein fix the housing crisis or is it beyond them or anybody else?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 648 ✭✭✭Irelandsnumberone


    Not much money to be made by developers, mates of mates etc in that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭The Mighty Quinn


    I don't think SF would solve a housing crisis if in government. Nor do I think FF/FG will solve it if they remain.

    Also can't imagine things would change that much if SF in power, as "the unelected government", i.e., the senior civil servants behind the scenes are the same people pulling the strings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    As others have said it's the complexity of it that flummoxes everyone. Granted our present situation was exacerbated by a lost decade of little to no building(c 2008-2018) but the huge scope of this is fixing private housing supply, persuading some to adjust to alternative form of living i.e. apartments, better planning and of course reversing 40 years of selling off and failing to build public housing stock.

    Can SF really fix all of this? I think it's extremely unlikely as much of their strategy here is piecemeal and largely consists of promises of huge public building projects with little precise detail to show how that might happen. There is nothing wrong with having ambitions but SF have set the bar so high for themselves that even half-achieving it opens them up to the likelihood of voters feeling betrayed and lots of the kind of daily scorn they heap on the incumbents.

    The real trouble though is that while housing may be key to the next election it's only one part of government and there will be many, many areas where they could fail just as badly as they claim the government is doing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Ambition is good

    But the problem I have with Sinn Fein is they have nothing to back up ambition and then slag off what everyone else has come up with. You ask them about housing and they give buzz words and sayings, ask them what is behind that and the answer is "well FF/FG done this"...ask them again and the answer is "well FF/FG done this".

    Sinn Fein are the ultimate hurlers in the ditch, anyone thinking they will resolve the housing crisis is going to be in for a huge shock. As I said, look at post one, the Sinn Fein supporters are already making excuses and they haven't even got near government yet. This is just not a once off but I have seen a recurring theme now with all of these Sinn Fein supporters that they are backing away from the "SF will fix everything" and moving to "oh we can't fix everything because of XYZ"

    That should be enough of a warning for a lot of people to what Sinn Fein are all about, point the finger politics

    Housing is only one part, health is critical as well to the next election. Not trying to switch the topic but in reality we have 70% home ownership, how many houses will be built til the next election, those people in houses will no longer consider it as important as health. Housing is just one key part



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Housing regulations and energy regulations have set the bar so high that costs are now astronomical as regards any type of housing.

    SF are actually fuelling our inflated rental pricing by promising to freeze rental prices.

    No,SF nor any govt can't fix our current housing crisis, I don't know if it can be solved even. That's about the reality of what's ahead for our younger generation.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It is probably standard for politicians to bring the most idiotic, ill-informed and dangerous policies to their department heads, only to have is explained in the simplest language possible, the damage those policies could inflict. Of course some times they plough on. Some young kid in the finance department with a calculator is going to say to Pearse and Mary Lou, “you two are a couple of idiots, how are you going to pay for this? Tax everyone and take money from other services?”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    Fair points on the vacant tax levy. I have an open mind on solutions

    You are absolutely right re. landlords. There needs to be a way to incentivise smaller landlords to stay in the market. The sense I have is that the system is broken and part of that is legacy to the financial crisis (accidental landlords wanting to leave the market) but also low returns, but perhaps the balance of power has shifted too much towards the tenant?

    Belgium has a good system which protects landlords (two months rent is in a blocked account + tenants have to pay for damage) and tenants (security of tenure) with increases linked to inflation (wages are typically increase linked to inflation).

    I also think that there needs to be a pension related product to allow individual landlords invest in a rental property tax efficiently (committed to a long term investment). Probably can be done now via a company set-up but I would imagine far more complicated than it needs to be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    The only way to incentivise smaller landlords to stay in market is to make it easier for them to throw out tenants and to also chase non paying tenants.

    That won't happen because tenants at the moment have demanded the new laws which give them all the power. We had a case on here of a person renting her apartment while on travels, returned and the people wouldn't move out. She ended up in court trying to get her own property back. Disgraceful carry on.

    Landlords, small ones, look at that and go AirBnB a lot easier and they are 100% right

    No party in Ireland has said they will change the laws in favour of LL, so that’s why large LL are required

    The sad things like everything is the small few of bad tenants that ruin it for everyone but at the moment they are let off and it’s the LL that gets screwed



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,632 ✭✭✭Shoog


    One solution seldom mentioned is to build houses in factories at scale. The efficiencies are significant in that each process can be optimised and system built houses can be far more energy efficient by design with all the on site compromises designed out. The result is far better houses with far fewer skilled labourers to build them.

    This is the model that builds houses in Germany and Scandinavia and it allows building to be ramped up significantly over one off developments. Better houses, cheaper and faster. Combine this with councils/government been the direct purchaser building onto already owned land banks and you could transform the housing market in a relatively short time at less cost then asking developers to solve the problem for you.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,844 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Exactly. Maybe they should live on the street for 5 years. It'll be tough but by the end they'll be able to afford a cottage in laois and have a 5 hour round commute to dublin to look forward to. Oh and they wont have central heating for the first 3 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭letsbefair


    There is no magic political bullet to sort it out. It’s basic economics. The cost of building is very high and never in history has a country been able to give everyone a house on the cheap. Even fully communist countries where the state owns everything. So don’t believe anyone with simple solutions. If you want to own a house it will cost you most of your income when you’re young full stop. Has always been the case and is so the world over. Ireland is no unique.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Given how high inflation is also hitting the raw materials used to build housing I don't see it getting any better in the medium term. There's essentially a floor on how costly building something is, before you even consider the profit margin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    It strikes me that the question title of this thread is somewhat loaded.


    Surely after more than a decade of FFG influence on the property market the question should be.


    Could SF make the property market any worse if they had a turn at it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭EOQRTL


    Why would building houses quicker, faster and cheaper interest FG or FF? They are very happy with the status quo.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    That would make sense that’s why it isn’t happening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Ffg are a proven joke. Against new housing everywhere. Sf the same no doubt. Non of them will deliver proper infrastructure, capable of supporting high density. Cost of construction is far too high, yet nearly every time standards change, it's to an "increased" standard, pushing the price even higher. We need masses of studios and apartments, reclaim the family homes in cities for families! Who wants to be in dingy house shares into their thirties and forties... better off in a modern contemporary smaller space on your own...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,978 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    We need to take the pressure of the purchasing a house market.

    The only way to do that (bar a recession) is to improve conditions in the rental market.

    The rental market has high rents and low supply due to government policy’s.

    “Small LL” are being forced out due to laws being completely in favour of the tenant and high taxes, this leads to low supply.

    HAP has put an artificial floor in rents so rents will stay high due to government giving out HAP which obviously ends up in LL pockets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    A SF supporter created the thread

    SF say if they get elected they will fix housing, it would seem even SF supporters know that SF have no answers and are trying to cover up before they even get elected…..

    Based on what? Would the multi billions been invested to build houses as quickly and cheaply as possible to make the housing market better?

    If they are happy with the status quo they would do nothing, they also asked the opposition in the Dail to work with them to resolve the housing crisis, when was the last time a government did that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,131 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I doubt the OP intended this thread to be the only place the housing crisis can be discussed.

    Having it discussed through the prism of SF is likely seen as a win for the government fans.

    I have long ago come to the conclusion that they couldn't make a lot of things in the country any worse and more and more of the electorate are coming to that conclusion too.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    A win for everyone should be for the housing crisis to be over, certainly my own position has been crystal clear and I just want it resolved ASAP

    Sadly that doesn’t seem to be the case with a lot of people on this forum jumping for glee when the homeless numbers rise and the housing crisis gets worse.

    No consideration for the people caught in the housing crisis and they are just used to score political points as you call them, personally I still have no idea what happens these points? Do they count them up at end of year?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    They don't want to. People like Troy within FF/FG are making money off the crisis, they don't want it to end. They've invited in investment funds to join in the fun. They are all making serious money. The previous FG housing policy advisor was Jennifer Carrol McNeil whose husband was the top man in Goldman Sachs Ireland at the time. Tell me she was putting the tax payer first and not investment funds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Waffle. You are just coming in and shouting from the same script, refusing to answer questions and ignoring responses. Pointless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Any proof on this? Please share if you have?

    I am sure everyone would love to see it 👍



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,131 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yeh but, yeh but the opposition Brucie...wot about the opposition?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Yes, they created and maintain a housing crisis and invest in housing. One in four TD's are landlords too. The previous FG housing policy advisor was Jennifer Carrol McNeil whose husband was the top man in Goldman Sachs Ireland at the time. 

    Can you answer the question, has housing been solved in DCC? They have a FF majority of seats, followed by FG. They've the Greens. They've the weight of the government behind them for near a decade. So they must have solved it in DCC?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Once someone doesn’t praise Sinn Fein you accuse them of “waffle” etc etc

    Hate to tell you but not everyone supports Sinn Fein, neither should they when as pointed out on this thread the huge issues they have in their policies.

    I have been clear from day 1, I want housing crisis resolved, that seems to have irked you, would you prefer to see it continue?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    So that’s a no on proof. Thank you for confirming

    in DCC you had 5 years of slow down, then covid, houses don’t get built in a day. The disaster left behind by Sinn Fein after their term in DCC will take a long time to resolve but the government are getting houses built and that is the only way to resolve

    Of course as we have seen, SF continue to delay projects all the time, this will continue to slow progress, but progress is been made still



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,131 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The, 'it's everyone else's fault but the actual parties that have shared the power in this country for 100 years' line again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Troy has a thread, might be an idea to discuss him in that thread?

    I seen Sinn Fein in DCC 👍 total and utter disaster

    I seen Sinn Fein screw over renters in the North

    I see Sinn Fein every day trying to make as many people homeless as possible

    Thats Sinn Fein 👍



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,131 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    And we have seen FG FF fail completely and it is more than a suspicion that they want it to continue failing as their actual members are profiting from it (Troy etc)

    So do the electorate see this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Nobody said that 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

    Anyway I have no interest in going down the usual Francie rabbit hole, my points are clear and concise, as always 👍



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,131 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I think the electorate will once again see that this is what is going on here too,

    They'll try and mask their failures with the 'it's the shinners fault' mantra.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    There is an equation at play here and its something along the lines of:

    % of voters who are property owners and have seen the value of their assets increase due to the current market conditions (typically older more community active religion attending type people)

    linked with

    the % of those people who are active voters (its high - very high)


    MINUS the number of people who are not homeowners but want to be, generation rent, struggling badly AND are active voters. For a number of reasons this demographic is not as large as people think, ((its probably high in a forum like this) because a lot of young people are not voters, dont live in their area etc.

    Sure there are people in-between, frustrated because kids are atill living at home etc.

    So if your running for election do you want the first cohort onside or the second because you cant have both, and generally speaking the first cohort votes and the second doesnt.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes



    In my opinion the issue is this it's a problem that neither a leftist nor a rightest ideology can fix. Because BOTH ideologies are contributing to the problem at hand in different ways. There is a lot of ideological bs and bitterness to wade through on both sides.

    Well their main issue ideologically will in my opinion be this. To actually do something they will need to offer tax breaks to the building industry get rid of a lot of red tape. They will seriously need to sort out a number of bodies like an taisce and the planning bord. Which would mean firing a lot of civil servants. Then will they will have to get to task on the dept of housing....imo an taisce the planning bord and the dept of housing should be one body. They keep suing each other and its getting ridic.


    It's too easy for people to make objections to planning. Some of the land zoning regulations need to be looked at.


    Also Ireland needs to diversify where we put our money. A lot of people invested in property because they didn't know where to invest or couldn't invest anywhere else. Property does well against inflation whereas a lot of other investment options don't. Americans invest in the stock market Irish people tend not to and when we do ...we invest in property funds. And its mostly RESIDENTIAL investing.


    When you look at commercial property and the rent prices there the difference is STARK. Offices in the middle of town that are like the size of four apartments and they are going for 1500k to 2000k per month including bills and sometimes even a receptionist desk that is operational as part of the deal.


    Over 90 % of the social housing due to be built by 2021 has not been built. So these people need to enter the private renting market. People complain about 'oh they get houses for free '. People dont realize social housing actually makes their own private rent cheaper too by keeping some people out of the private sector.


    Another reason its expensive isn't really talked about ....we all know we have high inflation well some of the reasons we have high inflation in my opinion is the degree of public private partnerships gone wrong. For example the govt renting hotel rooms for kids in foster care or for refugees. Its a disaster. THAT is precisely why hotel rooms in Dublin are 400 euro per night Hotels don't have to compete when they get that kind of business. And they know it. And I know that hotels are not paid the full wack by the govt for that service. But its something they rely on. When YOUR sector has just gone through a hugely defining moment like a pandemic crushing tourism and you come back with basic rooms at 400 a night ....someone is propping you up. A lot of public private partnerships are DRIVING inflation. It means people don't have to compete with others for the services they provide.


    Another issue is a lack of natural resources driving inflation we have no gas no oil and are an island that has to import it. That costs. Now either we get better deals we go green and we STOP privatising and start going back to state bodies....or we go broke.


    A lot of privatisation is driving inflation. GPS dentists etc all private ...you wanna see a GYNO ...for a smear privately once a year ..500 euro. THAT DRIVES INFLATION. The middle class don't want to admit it but the privatisation of what in other european countries are state bodies in this country is driving inflation. We don't have oil like the states nor the population buying and negotiating power. Often people don't realize HOW lacking in natural resources Ireland is. We have perhaps some resources that could be reached through fracking ...Ireland has banned fracking for ecological reasons. Now that might be the right thing to do I am not sure. Other European countries though like france and poland have not banned fracking. They say they have ways of doing it without the damage to the environment. I can't say again. If there are ecological arguments we have to answer to those. But ecologists also have to answer to the economic ones.


    When inflation rises RENTS rise. When petrol goes up when gps fees go up RENTS RISE.


    Now there is another issue. A lot of building companies in Ireland were crushed in 2008. The cost and the ability for builders to find financing now is harder. ALSO they used to find it a lot in london with brexit that is harder.


    Now another huge issue is STATE TAXATION STATE TAXATION STATE TAXATION ....this figure SHOCKED ME Between 13.5pc VAT, charges on materials, labour, tax on builder's profits, and the aforementioned local authority charges, it has been estimated by the construction sector that directly or indirectly, the State takes almost 40pc plus of the money paid over for a new home. ALMOST HALF! It doesn't take a genius to work out that is the state driving inflation through taxation. And no i don't expect SF to deal with that or admit it. Just like i don't expect FG /FF to admit that privatised a health service etc also drives inflation.


    The dumbest **** is ..that with all the tax they are claiming from the housing industry they STILL can't seem to use it to fix the homeless issue caused by the inflation caused by the taxation of the housing industry.


    Also those demonizing landlords. Look im sure there are some who are awful but most are not. With tax insurance and the time it takes etc there isn't a lot of money in it. It's somewhere to PUT your money ..and sell when prices are topped out. The reason landlords leave ...a lot of the time ..is because they think their investment has topped out. And small landlords get ripped of by companies too. And the funds investing ...are mostly made up of normal people not rich people. But they are managed by banks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Also speaking to a point above rental debt arrears are complex. Some people are living in sub par conditions and waiting on repairs.


    Over half of those in arrears owe less than 500 euro. Although some owe 27k or more. For example there are 25 tenants who owe 27k each.



    And its highest earners who are mostly in arrears ....the lowest earners are the least in arrears.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    I don't expect SF to handle the high taxation situation on goods and income ....maybe they will handle getting some proper state bodies for things that should not be privatised.


    Maybe if we elected an extreme leftest govt then an extreme right govt one after the other we can keep things in balance!



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Is no one acknowledging that the reason people are supporting the far left is because capitalism has left a generation behind?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    So your claim is nonsense. Thanks for confirming. You say in less than 5 years they destroyed housing in DCC, several years ago, even though FF/FG had more seats and were the government. And since then FF have more seats, followed by FG and still in government and housing is worse. You really need to stop peddling this nonsense. Its jaded and embarrassing.

    No FF/FG politician wants the crisis to end. They are making too much money off the tax payers misery.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    If it was true why has FF/FG with more seats locally and in government for years continued to make it worse? Its a head scratcher :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    The majority of people want to work, pay their own way and be able to maybe buy a house one day. FF/FG policies are taking this away from more and more people so the electorate is looking elsewhere. Its that basic.

    FF/FG won't change tact because many of them are making too much money off the crisis. All they can do is waffle and throw shapes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Not sure why you are so confused, we are talking about Dublin, the centre of the housing crisis, Sinn Fein announced in 2014 when they took over they would build houses, then didnt

    Its an excellent example of Sinn Fein promises to get elected and performance after election. Which was dire!!!

    Now I have been clear and concise!!! 👍👍👍👍

    Best of 🍀 luck to you



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Nah, you are. Repeatedly. You are claiming an opposition party with less seats on council than FF/FG combined, for less than 5 years single handedly 'destroyed' housing all while FG were in government. And since then FF have more seats as do FG and they are both in government, housing has gotten worse. Understood.

    Still dodging, has housing improved in DCC district with FF having the most seats, FG having the second most seats and both being in government? No. Its gotten worse hasn't it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    They should have the ability to take rent at source, end of story. This is replicated across the country with non paying tenants.

    The money from the rent can then be reinvested in repairs and new houses etc. How many houses could DCC buy/repair etc with 32m



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    That might work. Taking rent at source. Not sure of the legality.


    I don't have much faith in DCC ability to repair stuff .....how long do roadworks take??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Both capitalism and socialism have left a generation behind. That is the problem ..from the building and sale of a house FORTY PRECENT of the profit goes towards TAXATION. ....That means half the price of a house is TAX.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    If you are trading one home for another you should only be taxed on the difference and only if you are making not losing money. If you have a second home you should be heavily taxed on that. If you are a speculator during a housing crisis like Troy you should be hammered with tax. If you are a sitting minister you and your family should be barred from any property deals.

    Once the profits are denied FF/FG, they might look to tackling housing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    I can understand why you say that regarding second homes.


    However I have another point of view. RIGHT NOW we have a crisis.


    It's not normal times. Any taxation on any properties second or first only drives the inflation. No one should be hammered with tax until its sorted out.


    It might be hard for leftists to understand or accept that. It doesn't matter whether its a second or third house ..its part of the market.


    Secondly I don't think you are really understanding what i'm saying.


    IN THE BUILDING OF A HOUSE AND THE FIRST SALE in the PROFIT that goes to the builder the landowner etc ...im talking tax on the materials etc...40% of that goes to tax. IMO that is crazy.


    These are not normal times .these are crisis times. Cutting taxation in the building industry and on the building materials and on houses ALL houses severely is necessary for at least 5 years.


    Don't forget builders no longer can access finance in london so easily now ....london building companies can't work here so easily now. And oil /petrol costs material shipping costs .....its not just the housing market that drives prices its the entire process.


    The idea that the very construction of a house means so much taxation is not something people realize.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    I was following on not disagreeing.

    'Leftist' is a very loose term. Anyone gouging the public for profit because we are in crisis, should be taxed heavily IMO. Any politicians engaged in such activities should be ashamed of themselves.

    We had a record breaking housing problem for over a decade now.



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