The Collapse in Home Ownership was Fine Gael Policy

Ceepo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394198#Comment_119394198

How many of them lost homes, suffered mentally, or even worse committed suicide when the whole lending policy of the time went tits up.

In 2004 05 and 06 people were queuing outside housing developments to try buy a house with 100% or more mortgages. That didn't end well did it.

People have always found it hard to get on the property ladder in this country. There was a time when houses were "cheap" but interest rates where North of 15%.

If there was a FG "policy" to get people renting do you think it might have been a way to get people into badly needed housing, housing that no developers or the government of them time could build due to banking system collapsing having to be bailed out.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394338#Comment_119394338

What should be a right?

Do you mean a house?

Count me in, I can stop paying my mortgage, happy days.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394360#Comment_119394360

There are lots of alternatives.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394338#Comment_119394338

Yeah- free houses for everyone!

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394364#Comment_119394364

But renting is not really housing, its temporary and gives you no control over your life. A truly horrifying and soul destroying way to live. Worse thing that can happen to a person

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394376#Comment_119394376

Like what?

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394375#Comment_119394375

I think if I can pay 1600 a month to rent a bedsit I should be allowed get a 100% mortgage for 800 a month to buy my own home

Bit cynical

Basically zero ECB base rates (raised a little recently) causing inflated asset prices. Restricted lending rules mean that individuals can't compete with professional landlords on houses and banks still reluctant to fund new builds to the extent necessary.

Commonly proposed solutions:

1. Ban REITs and other corporate funds. True if you are buying you are in a better position now. Problem is that REITs and others are a source of investment into the housing market and getting rid of them will mean fewer houses built, squeezing supply and making rental harder for those that still need to rent. There will always be people who need to rent.
2. Relax lending rules to individuals. True this will enable people to borrow more and compete with corporate funds. The problem is that if interest rates are raised significantly, people who borrowed now will be in trouble and potentially also the banks. The other issue is that there will be some upward impact on house prices.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394421#Comment_119394421

Can you show us an example property where your mortgage will be €800 per month?

Ceepo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394388#Comment_119394388

I would argue that getting a debilitating injury or terminal disease would be worse. But it's all relative I suppose.

Do you think the people who's house was in repossession around 2010 '11' 12 would avail of the rental marked or face living on the street

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394547#Comment_119394547

From AIB mortgage calculator

This is the amount we can lend you, based on the info you've given us:

Mortgage loan

210,000

LTV 89.99%

Monthly repayment

€825.26

With a 100% mortgage of that I could buy this apartment in Tallaght and plenty of cheaper places in Clondalkin, Balbriggan and Finglas, the snag is under current lending rules you need a income of 60,000 and a 10% for the above so a single person on the average income is out

https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/apartment-23-hazelgrove-court-killinarden-heights-tallaght-dublin-24/3996718

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394338#Comment_119394338

Actually, maybe you can flesh out your post.

1. How exactly will SF sort us out if they come into power?
2. What would a referendum on housing be about - what would the question be?
3. If housing is a right in the constitution, do you mean the ability to own a house or the right to be housed (i.e. have a roof over your head)?

FWIW, no one party can solve the housing mess as it is far too complicated. It requires a coherent long term strategy that will require agreement from all parties. This means that a sitting government won't be able to claim the solution to be their own so it most likely won't happen.

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394608#Comment_119394608

We could fix it tomorrow by doing what was done from 1930 to 1980. Dublin city council hires its builders and architects. Designs one core housing type for 3 bed houses and one core flat type (for singles), we compulsory buy smaller properties and farmland and build non stop giving the housing to anyone in the rental market or stuck living at home to be paid at a set rate of their income

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394603#Comment_119394603

Bearing in mind that the asking price for that is higher than your €800 but the final sale price is also likely to be well over the asking price, you haven't met your €800pm wish. So maybe pick a property further out where demand isn't as big an influence.

As for the 100% mortgage and dislike of the deposit and earnings to load ratio: did you not learn anything from the last crash? These limits are a good thing for the greater good. If your salary is insufficient to meet the limits then upskill, move job or seek somewhere else that you can afford.

Irelandsnumberone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394629#Comment_119394629

Don't be silly, how would FF/FG and all their developer mates make as much money as they are now by doing this?

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394647#Comment_119394647

Two questions:

What happens to all those who cannot just "upskill" like who works checkouts etc. These industry cannot get staff today because their workers cannot get housing

Secondly when everyone who is not rich (Over 70k is in the top 25% plus of earners) has to leave Dublin as you advise who will do all those jobs then?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394629#Comment_119394629

Even if DCC hired architects and builders, it would need to go to tender. What you might find is that a private company can still complete the build cheaper than DCC staff.

As for compulsory buying smaller properties, what size is "smaller"? How popular will a policy be where you effectively evict a homeowner to build another home?

What happens if someone doesn't pay their rent in one of these new properties?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394671#Comment_119394671

Whilst I gave options, upskill was just one of them. However, are you seriously telling me that someone who works a cash register cannot improve their skillset in order to get a job that pays more?

What is the situation in the UK, Germany, France, America, etc for people who work cash registers - can they buy their own homes in a city?

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394687#Comment_119394687

It works fine in Vienna, I would remove laws around tenders etc from the provision of social housing so its for the greater good not profits

We could easily set up social rents that they come from source, ie directly from social welfare, pensions or wages.

As for evicting homeowners, two farmers got evicited to build Crumlin, a number of cottage got evicted to build Coolock, yet tens of thousands got housed.

If the housing situation stays as it is now, we will see a massive swing towards populism in this country. You cant expect people to support a system they have no skin in, and within the next decade or two renters will be the majority. In the Dublin City Council area renters are already the majority.

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394697#Comment_119394697

The UK has had the same neo liberal market as us and as a result they have a housing crisis, Im saying someone in retail needs somewhere to live and we are always going to need these vital jobs for the economy to function. We need to make working people in those jobs able to have a secure home

America never really had housing provisions and people who work in low pay can never retire

France, Germany etc has a high provision of social and co op housing for low and mid income people

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394711#Comment_119394711

It works fine in Vienna, I would remove laws around tenders etc from the provision of social housing so its for the greater good not profits

So by removing laws surrounding tenders,, we would have to leave the EU - how would that affect the jobs market?

Also, by removing competition, how will this affect the development costs?

We could easily set up social rents that they come from source, ie directly from social welfare, pensions or wages.

So another department needs to be set up. What about those homeowners who were paying a mortgage and you evicted when CPOing their home - where will they live? What if they can't afford one of the then available properties?

As for evicting homeowners, two farmers got evicited to build Crumlin, a number of cottage got evicted to build Coolock, yet tens of thousands got housed.

How many farms are left in Dublin now? Maybe you'd have us build on our parks instead?

If the housing situation stays as it is now, we will see a massive swing towards populism in this country. You cant expect people to support a system they have no skin in, and within the next decade or two renters will be the majority. In the Dublin City Council area renters are already the majority.

There is already a swing towards populism whereby people are looking towards parties that will allow them to avoid paying for stuff. Water charges for example. Now people are being bribed with the idea that they will be able to get a house regardless of their income.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394721#Comment_119394721

But you haven't answered my question: in which of those countries can a cash register operator (to use your example) buy their own home?

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394771#Comment_119394771

They cant, they either live in Poverty or social housing.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394774#Comment_119394774

So your thread blaming FG policy for a collapse in home ownership is based on your dislike of FG because you can't afford to buy. However, I take it that were you to move abroad and do the same job, you still wouldn't be able to buy a house.

This all ignores the fact that your entire opening argument is based on a decades old policy originally implemented by FF which sold off a lot of the social homes and kept funding for local authorities low so they couldn't afford to replace that stock. Ok then.

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394797#Comment_119394797

I think that Fine Gael are happy with having most people rent. I think FF want more home owners as they have a more working class base and have been destroyed in the polls over this issue, but they are too tied to the market and prices staying high to change things.

In the English speaking world I could not buy in any major city as they have all gone neo liberal, but I could in most European countries. I dont want to be forced to emigrate though

Now If I may ask you.

What is the solution to the housing crisis if you dont agree with social housing en masse?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394813#Comment_119394813

I've already stated my belief on solving the housing issue (I wouldn't call it a crisis but that's another discussion!)...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394608#Comment_119394608

There are far too many factors involved for a simple solution. Everything needs to change. Our planning needs to stop the one off rural housing and urban sprawl where there are no transport links. We need to reduce the dependency on commuting by car. The biggest problem with a long-term plan which probably would solve the housing issue here is that, politically, we don't do long term!

FWIW, I have absolutely no issue with social housing. What I do have an issue with is the idea that spontaneous ideas are presented as a solution when in fact that would only create more issues.

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394860#Comment_119394860

How is a massive collapse in home ownership not a crisis? Do you think renting is a comfortable way to live in Ireland?

From my vantage this is the biggest social catastrophe in modern history across the English speaking world thanks to the free market policies started in the 80s, and could well collapse western society

Housing99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394970#Comment_119394970

Often said, but can I ask where these country folk work? If you work in agri or a trade ok. But my office is full of people from the country who had to move to Dublin to work in a profession, and the 40k salaries they earn cant buy homes

For Forks Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394338#Comment_119394338

The Constitution is not a dumping ground for difficult issues of the day

For Forks Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058256317/the-collapse-in-home-ownership-was-fine-gael-policy

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