Why is our connection with Wales so weak?

snowstorm445

This always seems very strange to me in terms of our cultural geography. It's fairly popular to class Ireland together with Wales, Scotland, Brittany, Cornwall and the Isle of Man under the Celtic heading. But I would say out of all these we only really feel a strong affinity to the Scots. We share similar historic languages, we have similar cultural traits, there's been lots of movement back and forth over the centuries between us. It's still not particularly close (in the way that, say, the Scandinavian countries all feel bound together), but we recognise ourselves in each other to some degree.

For the rest, the connections seem to be more academic (languages, legends and mythology) than anything really tangible in the modern day. I think it's particularly surprising with Wales - they're right across the sea from us, stuck in between ourselves and our historical overlords (who definitely loom large in our minds). Historically speaking any route from our east coast which didn't travel directly north had to skirt past Wales at some stage. It's still a big part of the modern overland route to England, whether through Holyhead or Fishguard or anywhere else.

But Wales really doesn't feature in our cultural worldview. Our languages diverged thousands of years ago and they are very different nowadays, on the surface it's quite hard to see any connections between them. There wasn't a movement of people between us in the same way that there was across the Straits of Moyle to Scotland, even in modern times very few Irish people seemed to have settled in Wales specifically. Politically we've never been close either, as far as I can tell. And even to the average Irish person, we would tend to know very little about Wales other than experiences from taking the ferry or the annual Six Nations clash. How many Irish people would know about the Eisteddfod? Or who Plaid Cymru are?

Geographically speaking, they are the nearest neighbour for most of us. So why aren't there deeper ties between us? Did British rule stifle the connection maybe? Are they too small to exert much influence on us? Or is there actually a real connection that's just a bit less obvious.

razorblunt

Because theyre all pricks.

EmmetSpiceland

The Welsh have always had a “dislike” for us. I don’t think we think too much about them.

Back in the day, when the sport of rugby was in its infancy, the Welsh wouldn’t select players with “Irish sounding” names. Some were selected but they were forced to drop the O’ in their surname, if they had one.

Then, they refused to turn up, along with the Scotch, for the 1972 championship. One we were in a great position to win. After that they, again along with the Scotch, wouldn’t vote for us to host the rugby World Cup.

I would say we have, a lot, more reasons to hate them, than vice versa.

AckwelFoley

I deal with 3 companies in Wales despite our larger manufacturing site and HQ being in England would prefer to ring us in Ireland and deal with the brexit paperwork, rather than order from England

Yea. Must be because they hate the Irish

I've always thought the "connection" ireland feels for Scotland is more for the influx of Irish they had to places like Glasgow. The last influx Scots the Irish had were largely a pain in the hole. They bang a fair drum though on the 12th.

..and there's still dick heads wearing kilts at their wedding here. Wasn't cool 20 years ago, still isn't. You're Irish, not Scottish.

put_the_kettle_on

I used to travel into wales for work and always found them to be pretty insular and sullen, apart from when they were taking the p**$ out of me.

Maybe things are different now though. That was nearly 30 years ago.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306492#Comment_119306492

Kilts were originally Irish. Irish settled/conquered a large part of Scotland. The "Scoti" which actually originally an Irish tribe.

The Irish invented both kilts and bagpipes for the laugh, but forgot to tell the Scots that they were only a joke.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306268#Comment_119306268

About the gist of it.

Bobblehats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306550#Comment_119306550

Consider how masculine that skirt actually appears I’d wear one; especially in this weather fairly tore up about that.

Larbre34

Wales has always been more insular than Scotland, or even England. They have just 3 million people, they tend not to migrate as much.

Over Covid lockdown I traced my own family line back to the Cambro-Norman Lords and Knights that had land in Wales before coming to Ireland with and after Strongbow. So I intend to find out a bit more about Wales and where they lived, maybe even get a steer to trace back further to the European continent.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306591#Comment_119306591

It's the modern day. You can wear what you like without excuse or justification needed.

Bobblehats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306596#Comment_119306596

I’m not identifying as Scottish 😅

sooner be perceived as a lady again let me have a rifle, hang on

Kermit.de.frog

Wales is not a real "country". It's a province of the United Kingdom, like Scotland, until they grow a pair and leave. Until then I honestly couldn't care less about them.

Gregor Samsa

When I was a kid, we used to get HTV, the Welsh regional version of ITV, on Cablelink in Dublin. Sometime in the late 70s or early 80s, they switched to UTV. That was pretty much the end of my cultural exposure to our brythonic brethren. Although I did see Welsh-language punk band Anhrefn play in Charlies in 1991.

Xander10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306459#Comment_119306459

Scotch is a drink btw.

Potential-Monke

I reckon when the Irish and Welsh first met each other back in the day, neither could make head nor tail what the other was saying, so both decided to leave each other alone. It's why most of Ireland leaves Wexford alone.

Bobblehats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306799#Comment_119306799

So is the stena line. I think relations are grand

Ush1

Wasn't the largest vote for Brexit based in Wales?

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307246#Comment_119307246

No. England, at 53%, Wales 52

Some way behind Scotland at 38% leave and Northern Ireland at 44%

Still can't get my head around that level of thickness though... baffles me

Ray Palmer

Personally I still hold a grudge over them giving us Saint Patrick

Mrs OBumble

I don't think the Scots like the Irish as much as you imagine they do, OP.

Dempo1

Welsh hate the Irish 😳, utter nonsense, I worked and lived in Wales and have retained many friendships over the years, actually fantastic people and country IMO.

The Welsh and Irish actually very similar in many ways.

Isle of Man 🤔 well that's one weird place I have to say, can't think of a positive thing to say about the place, just out there in every respect.

Fr Tod Umptious

On the island of Great Britain Scotland has fared much better at holding on to it's own identity than Wales.

The King of Scotland James IV became King James I of England in the early 1600s.

And it took another 100 years for the Act of Union between Scotland and England.

Wales on the other hand had been politically integrated with England centuries before that.

As a result for most of us the Welsh are just a little higher on the scale of having their own identity than the Manx, Cornish or the Bretons in France.

Whereas Scotland is much higher on that same scale.

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308306#Comment_119308306

Well, there is a even difference on that scale between being “Welsh” and being “from Wales”.

You’ll hear, more, highly thought of people being described as from Wales, whereas less desirables will be called Welsh.

murpho999

This thing people say about being similar and having same culture is completely false in my opinion.

Lots of similarities in Ireland like food or architecture etc are basically colonial remnants.

When I deal with British people, whilst I find many very nice, I do feel we're very different. Our outlook on life and the world is very different. That's why we're independent and we have very different views on class, Brexit, royalty, aristocracy etc.

Don't feel we're similar at all really.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058253548/why-is-our-connection-with-wales-so-weak

Not sure why you posted this in After Hours?

A lot has to do with media & societal perception I think - the supposed special relationship with Scotland is often talked up, whereas we love to give out about the Brits. The Welsh are somewhere in the middle, a bit invisible to us.

In reality there have been and are strong enough cultural links across the Irish Sea between Wexford in particular and Wales. For all sorts of historical trade and settlement reasons. Twas the 'Normans' who arrived and landed in Bannow Bay etc and subsequently built many castle in the SE. These 'Normans' were largely from Wales and down the coast to Cornwall as far as I understand it. So maybe that colours our modern views. In recent years, there have been at least a couple of joint EU schemes linking communities on both sides - gone now of course with Brexit.

In terms of Scotland, look up the sixth century Dál Riata, Dalriada kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata which extended from Ulster to Scotland and is largely why Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaeilge are similar. In many ways, the depised Ulster Plantation was just a reversal of this movement and of course many people from Ulster went for work in Scotland etc

Likewise it's generally thought that the kingdom(s) of Laigin/ Leinster shared territory across into Wales and the Lleyn area is named for same reason. Read a book once where the author claimed the Leinster clans invaded a large part of Wales at one stage.

In truth, the whole history between these islands is far more complicated than the usual '800 years of occupation' narrative. We were at it too and genetically there'd be very little difference between all of us.

I've met a few Welsh people and found them very decent and likeable, easy going.

Ray Palmer

The thing is the Welsh are actually the English who were forced out of England and the English now are Germans who moved in

cheese sandwich

I think it’s a religious thing, Welsh were traditionally Methodist and pretty anti-Catholic. And there was no history of emigration from Ireland to Wales to develop diaspora ties

mrcheez

Short, stocky pricks tbh.

Went to a British school and the Welsh kids were short, but nasty, and were at the vanguard with the Irish slurs, but seemed to really get offended when I would reference their affection toward the sheep so I guess it balanced out.

FlubberJones

Good to see a balance between the comments that have some substance and the buffoonery of "because they're pricks"

But it is After Hours so I'll be expecting more of the latter than the former

And being from Wales and being Welsh... I'll not generalise as the buffoons would do, but like all places, Wales & Ireland have their fair share of "pricks"

iffandonlyif

Very interesting OP. Shame about the responses. Some Irish really are loathsome.

Wales is famously associated with mining, which I imagine was an indigenous industry. Irish people would have emigrated to industrial cities to work in factories, so ended up in London, Scotland and the north of England, not Wales.

But even with our extensive links with the rest of the UK, I don’t notice any flourishing cultural connection with Scotland. There are historical reasons for that, chief among them being that Northern unionists trace their lineage back to Scotland. But if Irish nationalism were a mature, virtuous movement, it would have sought to forge connections with Scottish nationalism.

Cardiff is a great town to go drinking in.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309140#Comment_119309140

And the Welsh gave us the term Gaels for the Irish, it come from a word meaning barbarian or wild man after Irish raiders (similarly the Romans called Irish raiders Scoti which was used to name some other lessor country). I wouldn't be surprised if the Laighin had their origins in Wales (like wise with the Connachta but maybe further North). Around the late Iron Age Ireland had less interaction with Britain than it had in the Bronze Age, and then with Roman and Later Anglo Saxon movement into Britain you had British groups feeling the squeeze and may have overflowed into Ireland or maybe invited as mercenaries (kind of like and earlier version of the Normans).

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309839#Comment_119309839

Interesting if Gael is a Welsh term for the Irish raiders. Must be related to our word for foreigners, esp mercenaries as in gall. https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/gall

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310889#Comment_119310889

As far a I know they are different, the word gall for foreigners has more to do with Gaul, either from a common root or based on interactions with people from there.

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306777#Comment_119306777

I remember getting HTV, but it was when we had an aerial on the roof and before Cableink.

Also saw Anhrefn play, in Trinity college in a daytime gig. Thought they were good.

j2

Some people here don't seem to like the Welsh! Beautiful country, great place to go hiking or climbing, and in my experience a really nice bunch of people. Really helpful with directions or tips on places to go etc.

tibruit

There is significant evidence of Irish migration to Wales in the later 4th and 5th centuries and they almost certainly founded kingdoms there. Lots of ogham evident in Britain particularly in south and south west Wales. The kingdoms of Brycheiniog and Dyfed were Irish for a while, probably founded by the Uí Líatháin. The Uí Líatháin, the Deisí and Criomthann Mor mac Fidach were probably associated with the Attacotti in Britain. The Attacotti were recorded as barbarian raiders by the Romans in the 360`s but by the end of that century there were four units of them serving in the Roman military. Two of the units were in Gaul and another in Greece.

MrMusician18

My only real experience of Wales and the Welsh is Holyhead, and that place us the most depressing kip in all of northern Europe.

As for why there is no real kinship with Wales is probably down to them not really having a strong nationalist identity, unlike say the Scots.

Even the relationship with the Scots is a bit one sided, it seems far more important for Ireland than the Scots themselves. One would expect though that if they ever vote for independence that the countries would become closer, even as rivals.

Furze99

Maybe our relationship with Wales and Welsh people is something we've forgotten along with the decline of our maritime economy. When you consider the extensive trade and movement both ways across the Irish Sea, there must have been strong family and business ties in previous centuries.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309704#Comment_119309704

A grim, violent kip.

Wouldn't have any sort of affinity with other Celtic “nations”. The Welsh bizarrely will tell you how much they hate the English yet they’ve very little interest in independence. They don’t even have a parliament of their own. 😳😳😳

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119318298#Comment_119318298

Well you need to go do some fact checking and learn about Welsh Assembly electons and the Senedd which is the Welsh parliament.

https://senedd.wales/

WesternZulu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308306#Comment_119308306

I don't know about Scotland holding onto its identity more so than Wales. I lived in Wales and they really show up Scotland, and Ireland for that matter, in how they keep their language alive.

They say a country without its language is without its soul - if that is the case then Wales has far more soul and identity than Scotland (and Ireland!).

I have to say that the Welsh are a lovely people and have far more in common with Irish people than you'd first anticipate. The scenery in N.Wales is out of this world too.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119320377#Comment_119320377

The language survived for a number of reasons of over the centuries. Firstly in the Henrician reforms a bible in welsh was written, breaking the link with church latin and so common literacy in welsh congregations increased. A similar attempt to produce an irish version was resisted due to religion being a pretext for land confiscations and so irish remained mostly a spoken language.

It might seem odd to us but being pro-Welsh language doesn't necessarily translate into being pro Welsh independence.

WesternZulu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119320568#Comment_119320568

There is an independence movement especially in N.Wales but there does seem to be an acceptance that they're just too small to ever feasibly be an independent country. I suppose in an ideal world they'd like to be free but in reality it doesn't seem practical. But I don't think that necessarily means they are lacking in identity. I think instead they place more significance on their language because that's the only real outlet they have of being Welsh - otherwise what's the point.

Geography isn't in their favour either, for such a small country it's incredibly difficult to travel north to south which doesn't help economics.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119320633#Comment_119320633

You're right about the geography. I drove up through Wales from Cardiff to Wrexham and it really was barren for a lot of it, very low density. Most Welsh seem to live along the south and north coasts.

An Irish woman living in North Wales told me that in the former mining areas far right racist groups are becoming a growing concern.

BurntAsh

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/celts-divided-by-more-than-the-irish-sea-1.3705930 sums it up nicely.

"Welsh contempt for the Irish was caused by three factors. The Catholic faith of the majority of Irish people was anathema to nonconformist Wales. The anarchy associated with Ireland (through events like the Land War and the Fenian rebellion of 1867) was a stark contrast to the Welsh self-image of being the most peaceful and law-abiding country on earth. Finally, the large number of poor Irish immigrants who arrived in Wales in the decades after the famine were viewed with contempt by many in Wales."

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119320690#Comment_119320690

Wales adopted a different Protestant faith to Scotland and while bottom up in comparison to Catholicism, Wales never had anything like the sectarianism so Intrinsic to Presbyterianism that became embedded to this day in Scotland, the Welsh do not have a problem with anti Catholicism and never have on any significant level

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308306#Comment_119308306

Don't agree at all , while the independence movement is tiny compared to Scotland, anyone who knows Wales is aware of a very distinctive culture which is separate from England

Further to that , even within Wales there are very distinctive and separate identities , with regards both the Welsh language and a movement for independence, North Wales is far more keen on being seen as not English, I've just spent a full week in North Wales ( as well as Cheshire and Shropshire) and that part of Wales puts us in Ireland to shame , Welsh spoken as often as English everywhere, I also didn't see a single union jack anywhere the entire week, Welsh nationalisms heartland is in the North , Carmarthenshire however in the south west is an outlier in the South as Welsh is also widely spoken there, despite all this , soccer is more prominent in North Wales, you might expect it to be Rugby

All of this is sort of contrary to the common perception of what a quintessential Welsh person is, the stereotypical Welsh have strong Welsh accents and live in the south im former mining centres around Cardiff etc yet both the Welsh language and Welsh nationalism is far less prominent in the South

North Wales = stunning rugged scenery ( snowdonia is more spectacular than anything we have in Ireland bar pockets of Donegal and kerry) , farming and slate making tradition everywhere

South Wales is where the majority of the population lives but its much less into the language and independence thing despite being by far the archetypal Welsh public idea

As for the charges of Wales being a poverty stricken dump, not true from what I observed for the most part, Anglesey is a dump and so this gives a poor first impression as holyhead is the first stop for most Irish people, it's a dump of a town and Anglesey is itself uninteresting with depressed looking villages, head east however towards Bangor and Conwy and things improve greatly in terms of scenery and obvious lifestyle,

Also in the same county of Gynyd is the beautiful town of Caernarfon with its spectacular castle right in the town and beautiful public town square, can't think of any town of similar size in Ireland which is as nice , further east in the county of Denbighshire, there are also many fine towns like Denbigh with a circa ten thousand population which are not far from Chester

I spent five days in North Wales and two days in Cheshire and Shropshire and all have towns and villages which make the vast majority of settlement in Ireland appear ugly ,most towns in Ireland are plain ugly

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119321074#Comment_119321074

Tip into Lancaster and behold the post industrial wastelands!

I think the Welsh attitude towards England is symbiotic, not dissimilar to the significance of the treaty of waitangi to Maori culture.

The funny thing is, the Irish are neutral to the Welsh.

But the Welsh can't stand the Irish.

And the Irish brush it off every time and think "nah they don't hate us" because the only possibility in our heads is universal love for Ireland and the Irish.

They're just annoyed it's the Irish Sea rather than the Welsh Sea, since it's their only coast and we have others all around us.