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Another piece of anti Landlord legislation

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭NSAman


    Sorry but that won't happen. The Irish government is hell bent on getting small landlords out of the business..... you know... the ones that ACTUALLY PAY TAX!!!

    They are more interested in keeping the large investment vehicles (WHO PAY LITTLE IF ANY TAX) sweet.

    All the time the tax payer is paying for those who need assistance and it is being brought abroad for the pensions and investment vehicles of outside interests.

    Wonder how this ever was allowed to happen...........hmmmm



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,353 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    No doubt this will hasten the exit of landlords from the market.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    This is going to drive very few if any LLs out of the market.

    What LLs (and good tenants) need legislation on though is dealing with tenants who aren't paying their rent - the evicton process should be very swift.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,945 ✭✭✭growleaves


    The Government want big institutional money in control of the rental sector.

    With economies of scale and tax advantages, financial corporations can withstand a number of bad tenants and still make a profit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,778 ✭✭✭C3PO


    If you think it’s bad now just wait until SF get into power!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 730 ✭✭✭drogon.


    Assuming the same legislation should apply to big REIT too right ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭touts


    If you think it's bad now wait until SF and PBP are in government in a couple of years. Landlords in Ireland will become their Kulak scapegoats.

    Time to sell up and wait the next few years out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭dennis72


    Just got another email rtb to register tenants leaving

    Happy it is the seventh off the market this year worked hard at this business ess sold some

    never screwed anyone deps returned and rarely put up rents

    Small ll need a good relationship with tenants that is what I strived any tenant finding a new place with non reit will be able to milk it if they want

    And with SF it will get worse



  • Registered Users Posts: 730 ✭✭✭drogon.


    Just thinking about it, wouldn't this not have other consequence. If you are letting out a house, just keep the tenant for 1 year.. find someone else, repeat cycle ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭freddie1970


    Was talking to a estate agent yesterday who was a good few Dublin peoperties on their books ..He was saying that all this legislation is having a negative effect on the rental market ..where years ago once someone had a reasonable income you could let a property out to them ..But now you can not consider someone unless they are in a real well paid safe job ..any body else is not worth the risk .....



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭AnRothar


    After 6 months the Tennant has other rights so that would not work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,289 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    I’m in the process of moving out of my rental of 4 years after buying a place of my own. The landlord has decided to sell the house rather than relet it. Can’t really blame them in fairness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    If you had money to invest and wanted to use it as deposit to buy a place with a commercial mortgage, I'm not sure the banks would lend there is to much risk for LL and if the bank has to take over the property for them too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 730 ✭✭✭drogon.


    But what if you only give them a 12 month contract from the start.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,126 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    They get rights at six months, irrespective of the contract.

    Some LL are doing what you suggest but the contract term is 5 months and three weeks. Lots of work for the LL. Tedious for tenants.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭mrslancaster



    Looks like there will be no point doing that in future, these new notice periods say 90 days for a tenancy up to six months. That option will be gone for landlords, they'd have to give 3 months notice after a tenant is barely moved in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,627 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    This is for 'No Fault' evictions.

    Do you think it is reasonable for a landlord to be able to evict a tenant with only a few weeks notice for no fault of their own. Given how extremely hard it is to find rental accommodation at the moment, should tenants not be given a reasonable length of time to find new accommodation?



  • Registered Users Posts: 730 ✭✭✭drogon.


    Honestly doesn’t make any logical sense if the rental agreement is only for 1 year when the tenants signed it.

    Imagine giving a year employment contract and then still having to officially terminate the staff 3 or 6 months before their signed employment contract is supposed to end.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,768 ✭✭✭Xterminator


    just wanted to reiterate The amended bill, which applies to ‘no-fault evictions’. its a specific change that is designed to give tenants more time if the landlord decides to terminate a tenancy where the tenant is holding up their end of the bargain. It has nothing to do with tenants who don't pay rent, etc.

    I don't expect any landlords to like the idea but any fair person can concede that given the housing situation in Ireland (neither the landlords nor tenants fault) it is understandable the tenants need time to find alternative accommodation before falling into homelessness or overholding the property.

    This one specific change has merit and i don't believe it will have landlords running for the exit ramp.

    If you don't like the way the industry is going, then yes, perhaps its a good time to get out. Other mentioned SF etc and i cannot see any election result where SF are not the single largest block in the Dail in the current climate (housing crisis, cist of living crisis etc.). Will drive the floating voter to opposition parties- guaranteed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 648 ✭✭✭MakersMark


    So can someone tell me how making life more difficult for small landlords will increase rental supply please?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 730 ✭✭✭drogon.


    It won't in my opinion. But I guess this protection is mainly to help people who are already in the rental market and not those who are trying to get onto to it. Any legislation will have consequences and I am afraid this isn't going to help.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,353 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Believe it or not statute overrides the contract! Furthermore the same thing can happen in employment situations. keep someone on a series of short contracts and they become entitled to a contract of indefinite duration. Look at the teaching forums for examples.

    What may seem rational and sensible has been distorted in an attempt to provide "rights" to renters. All it has done is drive LLs out of business thus causing a shortage of supply and making things worse for many renters.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's the one that Darragh "two dinners" O'Brien definitely doesn't want to answer - and one that, strangely, I've never heard any interviewer ask him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Usually an employment contract has a probation period so both parties can see if they suit each other. If either decides it doesn't suit, they can quit/be terminated during the probation period. Under the new rental notice periods, there is no probation period for a landlord, and a tenant can break a lease contract whenever they like, even if they've signed a lease for a year.

    An employee and a tenant are very similar - they can both walk away with little chance of follow up or penalty, but the company or landlord has to stick to the rules because if they break the rules, it can be very costly. The difference is that an employer is not handing over an asset worth hundreds of thousands to an unknown individual. No doubt, landlords will find a way around it but it doesn't mean it will be easier for renters to find a place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,092 ✭✭✭DubCount


    We are in a spiral at the moment. There is not enough rental supply, so make rules to protect tenants, which drives out landlords, which makes supply worse, so make more rules to protect tenants, which drives out landlords, which makes supply worse..... and so on. Adding more tenant protections only makes things worse for tenants. We need more rentals and more landlords. Heading for nearly 50 changes to rent legislation in the last few years, nothing has been done to encourage more landlords or tenancies.

    It may be popular. It may be well meaning. It doesnt create supply, so it doesnt help.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭amacca


    I find it hard to believe its well meaning


    They can't be that stupid that they can't connect the dots.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭dennis72


    Anybody living in a below market rental have been gifted a small portion of the property under the guise of extra protection and rent caps

    My last remaining will have owner occupier with licencees for the next 2 year then back out at market rate

    Threshold has fully evolved into rtb next step is ban on all evictions



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 608 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    Landlords will offer only less than 6 months lease. Rtb will receive €40 per let so at least €90 per per year per minimum. More money for them.

    The Government will be quick to close the gap on this also. More work for the landlord cleaning and prepping the property but at least there no continuous tenancy and limited resale value on the property.

    Once again heard on the news they are going to charge vacant tax(info from the census) on properties in this years budget. There are only a small proportion of properties that are vacant. What happens when there is a gap between tenancies which can happen? This is just getting silly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    More changes for termination notices.

    From 6th july, there are new rules on ALL notices of termination.


    Every NoT must be notified to RTB on a Notice of Termination Return Form along with a copy of the notice plus any other documents eg Statutory Declaration. The Return Form must be notified on the same day it is served on the tenant or the NoT will be invalid.

    https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/sample-notices-of-termination



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    The additional notice period and the new RTB return form rules were included in the Regulation of Providers of Building Works and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022...

    It's no wonder small landlords can't keep up with all the changes when the new rules are buried in with other legislation, in this case they're lumped in with rules about builders 😡😡.

    Heard someone interviewed recently who said the rental legislation is now so cumbersome and bureaucratic that only barristers can really understand it.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,147 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    My tenant left the country the 1st, doing place up now and have estate agent coming Monday. Really cannot wait to be rid of it (I’ve only had one bad tenant, so have been lucky). Who would want an asset that you have absolutely no control over, one bad egg could sink you (unless mortgage free).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 608 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    Have you read the small print? If a landlord gives notice and puts the property up for sale and it does not sell within 12 months and put back up for rent. The landlord must contact the tenant to offer property back. If they do not have the forwarding address they MUST contact RTB for the x tenants details. RTB will then forward x tenants to the landlord.

    https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/how-a-landlord-can-end-a-tenancy/landlords-grounds-for-ending-a-tenancy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    IIRC, that was supposed to happen if the property was put back on the rental market. Most landlords who want to sell will do it eventually, even if a sale falls through, it will just be re-advertised. The dodgy ones who used it to get tenants out will not be offering it back to the tenants imo, they will keep it vacant. More than likely the tenants will have found a new place in 12 months.

    Post edited by mrslancaster on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 974 ✭✭✭redarmyblues


    I have spent the last three weeks trying to register a tenancy, RTB site stopped working for me, so per the RTB web chat I emailed in the form spent 15 minutes queueing outside one post office but never made it in the door walked 20 minutes to a quiet PO bought a money order and posted it to RTB only for it to be returned a week later.

    God above, these people are stealing a living.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    I thought they were still legal to pay bills or send money gifts through the post. We used to get them years ago for birthdays or christmas.

    Maybe whoever opened the post had never seen a postal order before 🙄

    



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 974 ✭✭✭redarmyblues


    They knew what it was, they just didn't read the note explaining I had emailed in the form as per RTB instructions. Anyway going to ring an estate agent tomorrow, sick to eye teeth of this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭rightmove


    from the indo. Sorry I promised never to read it again but someone pointed this out


    "Meanwhile, a paper on property-related taxes warned it was “difficult” to form a “reasonable” policy which would stop accidental landlords from cashing in on their properties.

    The Tax Strategy Group said rent controls put in since the financial crash has meant “amateur” landlords do not have “time, money or risk appetite” to stay in the rental market.

    They said accidental landlords are “keen to sell” once they are no longer in negative equity on their properties and any policy options to stop this are “extremely limited”."


    Firstly nice that the indo used the words "Cashing in" rather than selling up so we know the anti LL rethoric is safe and sound.

    and policy options are limited when you dont consider any measures which would have helped. Horse is bolted but even the above shows they havent woken up and smelt the coffee



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    As I've argued before, properly regulated, this might be a good thing for tenants at least in some respects. Institutional owners will not kick out tenants in order to move in relatives or to live in the property themselves. Regulations can be brought in that institutional landlords when selling, have to sell with the sitting tenant.

    This piece of legislation, for example, is unlikely to affect large landlords as they would have fewer reason to evict a fully paying and compliant tenant. But this is also to the benefit of the tenant who does not have to go looking for other places to rent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭daithi7



    Rents are at record highs — so why are private landlords fleeing the market?A big jump in landlords selling up comes despite record rent levels - yet another sign of a broken market


    Expand


    Why are private landlords walking away from the residential rental market in Ireland? Photograph: iStock


    Cliff Taylor

    Thu Aug 11 2022 - 12:12












    A big rise in notices of termination issued to rental tenants has again raised the issue of private landlords selling up and leaving the market, intensifying the already significant shortage of properties on offer. On one side, landlords are clearly happy to sell following a strong recovery in prices. But why sell a relatively safe, income earning asset when other investment options generally either offer poor returns or are risky? Let’s look at what we know.

    1. What is a notice of termination? The latest controversy follows publication of new data on notices of termination issued to tenants. A notice of termination of tenancy is served by a landlord on a tenant, giving them notice of the intention of the landlord to end the tenancy. Generally landlords must have one of four reasons to end the tenancy — they intend to sell the property, convert it to another use, move in themselves or allow a family member to do so, or they intend to substantially refurbish it.

    The notice can also be triggered by a breach of tenant obligations, including rent arrears. In some cases these issues may be sorted out and the tenant may remain. Figures provided to Sinn Féin housing spokesman Eoin Ó Broin showed that the number of notices of terminationissued, as registered with the Residential Tenancy Board (RTB), rose to 2,913 in the first six months of this year from 1,845 in the same period last year.


    The lifting of the ban on evictions during Covid-19 was a key reason for this. But underlying it is a move by many private landlords to sell up.


    2. How many landlords are selling their property? The RTB hasn’t got a breakdown yet of the second quarter figures but we can make a good guess. In recent quarters more than half — around 55 per cent — of notices have been due to planned property sales, This suggests that the notices of termination in the first six months reflect planned sales of around 1,900 rental properties. Some landlords own more than one property, so we don’t know exactly how many are involved here, but the anecdotal evidence is that most of those selling are smaller players with one or two properties.


    Again based on recent trends, a further 550 or so properties may have been withdrawn from the market in the first half of the year as the landlord or a family member was going to live in them. While the family member could be paying a rent, many of these properties are effectively going off the rental market.


             Learn more



    The trend of landlords getting out seems to have accelerated in the four of five years before the pandemic, with the number of private landlords falling from 175,250 in 2016 to 165,706 by the end of 2020. There was a huge surge in rental tenancies in the Celtic Tiger years, with huge private investment in property to rent out. This has now gonesharply into reverse. Large “professional” landlords, in contrast, are expanding but the very biggest ones still service a relatively small part of the market. Smaller private landlords — with one or two properties — provide around half of total tenancies.


    [ Rents soar by highest rate on record as availability of properties hits all-time low ]


    After a hiatus during Covid-19, numbers leaving are now sharply on the rise again. Were the second half figures to mirror the first half of the year, some 3,800 rental properties could be sold off this year alone and another 1,000 plus withdrawn for family or personal use.


    In very rough terms, we have seen a run rate of around 600 investment property sales a quarter in the years running up to 2020 rise to probably over 900 now — with very little new investment on the other side. Just 1,000 buy-to-let mortgages were taken out in 2021. Ireland’s biggest estate agency, Sherry FitzGerald, has said that it is seeing three landlords selling for every one rental property being bought, an acceleration in the trend which had seen a two to one ratio in recent years.


    3. Why are they selling? An RTB survey taken in 2020 indicated that around one quarter of private landlords would consider selling in the next five years. This partly relates to a generally older age group of landlords — some are selling out to raise cash to fund retirement. And, with rising house prices and doubts about the economic outlook, we could speculate some have accelerated these plans. Some are also “accidental landlords” who have perhaps inherited property or got caught out when the property market turned after the financial crash and are selling now because they are no longer in negative equity.


    While this is portrayed as “cashing in”, there must be other issues here. Why sell an asset which can generate a decent and secure return when it is difficult to find other homes for cash in risky financial markets?

    The RTB 2020 survey gives some clues. A significant number of potential sellers said they just didn’t want to be a landlord any more — but of those who did state a reason, a lack of profitability from the venture, the tax on private landlords and the need to fund a pension were three of the highest.


    Tightening regulation is also referred to by many in the sector. New legislation introduced in June tightens the rules and effectively means that, after six months living in a tenancy, the tenant will have a right to remain for an unlimited duration. The landlord thus needs formal grounds to end the tenancy — such as selling the property. Previously a tenancy could be ended after six years.

    Landlords must also abide by rent pressure zone rules limiting annual rent rises. This can leave some landlords securing rents that are below the market level achieved by new landlords in the same area — creating a kind of dual market. Of course the flip side is that market levels can be unaffordable for many tenants.

    The Irish Times view on the rental market: deeply dysfunctional ]

    The Tax Strategy Group Papers published this week point out that there are policy trade-offs here. The rent pressure zones were put in place to protect tenants from significant rises. But the limit on rental increases — and the division between those with sitting tenants and new landlords — does create distortions in the market. Meanwhile new regulations mean landlords have less flexibility. There are no “right” answers here — but there are consequences to policies which increase costs and and regulations on tenants and on landlords.


    Landlords also complain about tax treatment, with many paying at a marginal rate of over 50 per cent on rental income. The Tax Strategy papers outline a range of possible reform options here to reduce the tax burden on landlords, particularly in the early years when costs are high. Among those options is allowing rental losses to be written off again other income, increasing other tax deductions or changing capital gains tax rules, perhaps tied to a commitment to longer-term investment as a landlord. It seems that some action will be taken in the Budget, though what precisely remains unclear.


    The final issue raised by landlords is difficulties when things go wrong. The RTB survey suggest that most have a good relationship with their tenants. However procedures to be followed to get possession of a property when tenants are not paying the rent due can take a significant time, according to some landlords.


    4. Where is this going? There was a huge rush into the buy-to-let landlord market during the Celtic Tiger years — 28,000 buy-to-let mortgages were taken out in 2006 alone. Now many of those caught up in that frenzy are selling out along, it seems, with older landlords who own one or two properties. Both groups may struggle with compliance and regulation and feel the return on the other side is not worth it.



    CSO figures show that, in 2019, half of all landlords earned less than €10,000 a year in net rental income ( this is rental income net of expenses allowable for tax ) and 80 per cent earned less than €20,000. Around 20 Around 20 per cent of renters see it as their main occupation - not surprisingly the numbers are much higher for landlords owning multiple properties. Smaller renters typically have other income sources. *


    We are now witnessing the departure of the bulk of accidental landlords and many of the one and two property operations. On the other side, we see the growth of the investment funds with the firepower and resources to cope with regulation and favourable tax treatment. The question is whether the middle ground landlord — those with three properties or more — can be kept in the market and encouraged to expand and whether the exit of smaller players can be slowed.


    For now the market is sending a worrying message that, for many, being a landlord is not worth the hassle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭sandyxxx


    you'd be surprised, the new €40 annual registration for tenants was enough for us to give notice and sell up......not so much the €40,but the constantly changing goalposts.....with the threat of shinners loomin large also!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 974 ✭✭✭redarmyblues




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