Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123043935#Comment_123043935

"Nobody who saw Bailey in the pub and out and about at the Christmas in the week after the murder said anything about scratches."

This one immediately comes to mind, noticed in the pub on the 23rd I think. Even what the barman saw on the 22nd doesn`t come close to this, keeping in mind that multiple patrons present while he played the bodhrán noticed nothing. Sophie Toscan du Plantier case: New witness provides sketch of scratches he saw on Ian Bailey’s hand in December 1996 | Irish Independent

"back they went again and again to get what they wanted"

You put that in quotation marks. Who do you attribute it to? You must have expected Florence to drop the camera and make a run for it.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044018#Comment_123044018

“It's farcical that they didn't take a picture.”

It suits their approach - keep evidence vague - actual photographs might just put Bailey in the clear - best we draw the wounds ourselves to fit the narrative we’re pedalling

LambshankRedemption

In a rural pub, in winter, frequented by farmers and manual workers, who would really notice scratches on a persons hand?

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123043991#Comment_123043991

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044005#Comment_123044005

Quoting myself here too but just to add.

We don't have to hypothesise about some of this as there are facts available pertaining to the case.

We know that the fingerprints were found,

the gardai know the exact location of those fingerprints, and

each of the Hellen's would have had to, at a bare minimum acknowledge that they were in the house, and explain why. Perhaps this was sufficient and the gardai didn't investigate further, perhaps they did. But whatever happened, it was put to bed quickly, and is unexplained.

Anything suspicious also would have had to been explained at that time. None of these discussions have ever been released. There were other fingermarks too. What we also know is that the gardai said the perpetrator did not enter the house at all. Quite a conclusion, with no explanation.

Given the leaks about Bailey in this case, the fact that there were minimal leaks at all about other suspects, indicates that someone behind the scenes was preventing information getting out there that didn't point to Bailey. Essentially protecting others, which could be considered good protection, or illicit protection, depending on the perpetrator.

Mackinac

Regarding DNA/evidence - what if evidence left behind by the perpetrator could be explained away as it was expected to be there?

tibruit

Looking back at Florence and her Christmas Day Swim video. It`s striking how chastened Bailey looks a few days after the murder. He looks like a Labrador you walked in on sitting in front of a ripped up settee. This is a fella who was a narcissistic yoke who usually lit up when confronted by a camera. Credit to Florence, she gave him an open mike to mark the day with a few words and the first words that came into his head were….

"The only comment I have to make at the moment is you can talk to my lawyer and I put my trust in God."

Now imagine if Florence had repeated Bailey`s comment in a statement, but if she hadn`t any video record of it. There would be a furore on here any time it was raised. Guards going back again and again until they got what they wanted etc etc.

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044175#Comment_123044175

It's true, this video evidence does demonstrate his cavalier attitude when it comes to things he said. That statement, and the fact it was recorded carried far more weight because you can see the context. The fact that he jokes at all I don't think is that much of a red flag, however the content of what he says is disturbing at best.

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044146#Comment_123044146

This has been addressed above, but suffice to say it would depend on the person who left it, the type of DNA, and the location it was found.

Also, to add, it could be found in more than one location too.

Mackinac

MVac can collect touch DNA, if the perpetrators DNA was left behind, say for example on the clothing but can be explained away then what happens?

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044020#Comment_123044020

"I spotted Ian Bailey at the other side of the room. I went over to wish him a Merry Christmas. I approached him from his left side, and after wishing him well, I looked down and was shocked to see that the back of his left hand was criss-crossed with deep and obviously recently-incurred cuts and scratches."

Amazing detail there, and the scratches on the left hand are so much better than the Garda sketch above of the right hand! and all that after what 27 years! Some memory that. And the reasons for not reporting it for 27 years was learning about Bailey saying he was scratched cutting a Christmas tree. Here's Bailey's left hand 2 days after the murder, all scratches and scabs-

Edit; Dermot Dwyer said about going back again and again to get what you want, you've seen it yourself in the docs, I forget which one.

As for Florence, she was fine as you can see.

left hand.jpg

tibruit

edit

lalababa

Is it right in saying two 'blow in' locals took their own lives in the year ceding the crime? With one admitting he had done an 'awful thing'. Anymore on this?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044638#Comment_123044638

The German musician that lived down the road from her and had no alibi who wrote on his suicide note he had done something terrible?

Nah, they easily ruled him because he wasn't Ian Bailey.

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044139#Comment_123044139

A very good point. Probably every second farmer in the neighbourhood had scratches on their hands. Not from committing murders, just from hedging, ditching, cutting back, handling fences and wire…normal country life.

This particular point always makes me smile. Every Christmas I sing in the choir with my hands covered in scratches - from cutting bunches of holly, tying them and hanging them up in my house. Very scratchy stuff, holly.

Lucky I wasn't in Schull that year or I'd be a suspect too!

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044275#Comment_123044275

It will be interesting to see what happens there for sure. I think the issue we could run into is that if someone else DNA is found (other than Sophie and Bailey's), then the gardai would surely be compelled to find out who it is. This is different than the French finding perhaps, as that was given to the gardai rather than requested.

It would be very difficult for them to carry out that investigation of that person without information leaking imo, but perhaps it could be done. Even still, with all the time passed, and all the prior focus on Bailey etc. and shenanigans it is probable in my opinion that the DPP or a judge would rule that there isn't enough evidence for a murder prosecution, unless it is blood with blood, or similar. There would be major outrage, and perhaps another witch hunt if word gets out. It's a very sensitive situation really.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044710#Comment_123044710

😀

I know you’re being sarcastic but really, all these years later that’s what I feel they actually did. For me, that’s probably the most obvious lead to have investigated and followed up on .

Mackinac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044772#Comment_123044772

If unknown DNA is found then it’s source will have to be identified but if Sophie was killed by someone who could explain their DNA being there, then what happens? Would they be reliant on a confession?

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044852#Comment_123044852

I agree, it will depend on a lot of factors, but there is the possibility that the perpetrators DNA is found (and perhaps already has been, on the boot) and they can provide an explanation for it being there, and then there is nothing further the gardai can really do about that beyond questioning. There are a handful of people for which this could be the case. I think if they do get a hit though it is unlikely it can be explained easy. Incredibly lucky for the perpetrator that none (well only one) has been found so far. It would be unlikely to get this kind of luck twice, but stranger things have happened.

Mackinac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044890#Comment_123044890

DNA from blood would be harder to explain away but not impossible, touch DNA could be more easily explained away if the killer was known to Sophie.

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044944#Comment_123044944

But if the DNA is from someone who has claimed they didn't know Sophie, were never at the place, slept the night away in their own little bed….then that person has some serious explaining to do.

A visitor to her cottage might conceivably have left some traces of DNA on, for example, a napkin, a towel or an outdoor coat; but on her pyjamas? No way at all.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044852#Comment_123044852

If non-Sophie DNA is found on her clothing or the stone or block then the first thing they will do is compare it to the only other non-Sophie DNA that they have (on the boot).

Did Josie Hellens role involve washing, drying & folding up Sophies clothes? If any new DNA is from a male, it is unlikely to have any justification for being there.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123045043#Comment_123045043

If new DNA is found, what kind of database is there to it compare to?

The samples taken almost 30 years ago may be useless now.

The DNA appeal in the local area in The Kerry Baby's case proved very successful. A certain amount of luck appered to have been involved, but I always thought the investigators had ther suspicions, and focused on the family.

Edit;

Other news , Jules Thomas going after Netflix,

https://www.thetimes.com/world/ireland-world/article/ian-baileys-ex-to-sue-netix-to-clear-her-name-in-murder-case-p7hfs8snj#:~:text=Jules%20Thomas%2C%20whose%20former%20partner,west%20Cork%2028%20years%20ago.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044780#Comment_123044780

Last I heard your "most obvious lead" never happened.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044464#Comment_123044464

"Amazing detail there…."

So Roger Brooke was a friend of Jules apparently. What motivated him to make up a yarn do you think?

"Dermot Dwyer said about going back again and again to get what you want…"

So what? Witnesses sometimes hold information back for various reasons and sometimes don`t provide information because they think it isn`t significant. Isn`t Brooke an obvious example there.

"As for Florence, she was fine as you can see."

You can`t see, nor do you know at what point in the exchange she noticed the scratches. The still is of no use in determining the severity of the scratches either as it`s only a blurred image of one hand. He is keeping the old sleeves well down though isn`t he.

Seth Brundle

He is keeping the old sleeves well down though isn`t he.

FFS, you really do see what you want to see - the sleeves look as if they are in the normal position!

I'm currently out walking and my sleeves, as it happens, are reaching my knuckles, just as I like it.

Xander10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046443#Comment_123046443

In the Netflix Documentary, Daniel Caron, RTL Ireland Correspondence, on arrival in Ireland, states that after Bailey was arrested for the 2nd time, he went to Jules house, to speak to her, they were friends, and he asked her "do you think Ian could be guilty" to which Jules responded "I don't know"

At some stage thereafter, Jules was stating it was impossible that Ian could have done it.

What subsequently gave her that clarity, given she was mainly in a drunken sleep that night/early morning?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046627#Comment_123046627

Are you head of the Garda investigation now?

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046812#Comment_123046812

No. Do you just accept everything you read online as fact?

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046715#Comment_123046715

"the sleeves look as if they are in the normal position."

Speaking from experience (I`m taller than Bailey was), I would say no.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046929#Comment_123046929

Well I certainly don’t pay any attention to hearsay from random posters if that’s what you mean