Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931839#Comment_121931839

Is there anything to suggest she took her bread and cheese into the sitting room where the wine glass was left?

Or that that fire was lit on Sunday night?

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931890#Comment_121931890

I'm fairly sure the fire would have been lit as it was a cold night. There are 2 fires in the sitting room but one was out of action as the chimney was smoking. There was a chair drawn up in front of the other one and the wine glass was on the mantle. There was butter and cheese on top of the refrigerator in the pantry.

senga_60

Hello all, my first ever posting regarding this case albeit I have known about it for years but never had time to truly think about it.

I have asked myself on many occasions what made Sophie go alone so near to Christmas. In my opinion, the reason why she did holds the key as to why she was murdered hence not a premeditated one.

My theory is that Sophie got wind of her holiday home being rented out/used by others in the run up to Christmas and she was going out there to protect her property and scupper anyone abusing it for monetary gain or simply just using it as a abode for friends over the Christmas period.

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931835#Comment_121931835

I'm not so sure...there are no breakfast dishes, no freshly-used coffee cup or coffee grounds. No obviously "breakfast" clues at all, apart from the unexplained bread loaf. Maybe there WAS no breadbin for "putting away" bread?

So let us reconsider the "middle of the night" theory.

What if Sophie was asleep and awakened by a noise outside; She looks out, and sees lights or movement or something suspicious. Depending which window she looked out, this might have been at the stone shed, or....what was the view from her bedroom window? Could she see across the back field to the laneway gate?

Would this cause her to put on her dressing gown, pull on outdoor boots and lace them up, and go out to see what is happening - possibly taking the little hatchet from the porch with her? A brave lass, if so.

What happened next? She approached whoever-it-was and challenged them? A struggle ensues...

What was that person or persons DOING, that they responded with such brutal savagery?

There is nothing to suggest a lethal attack at the house, apart from one smear on the door. There is a LOT to suggest the attack took place down beside the gate. But the veil of unknowing continues to hide these events.

Mackinac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931835#Comment_121931835

It does. It also makes the sighting of the blue Ford Fiesta with red plates at 7.30 in the morning very interesting.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932198#Comment_121932198

But then where is the bread and wine in her system if it was had for supper?

The number of wine glasses suggests a glass of wine was drunk in the cottage.

On the Sunday Sophie had a glass of wine at the Ungerers and tea and scones in O'Sullivans pub 5ish, according to the timelines Ive seen. If that is correct then for a 3am murder shouldnt the scones have shown up. Hmm.

3am time for the murder doesnt seem to fit with the stomach contents at all.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932198#Comment_121932198

Every room in the house had at least one window facing down the lawn towards the gate in the lane. The kitchen also had a window on the western gable. The guest bedroom where Sophie slept that night also had a window on the Western gable, but it was blocked up at the time. There was no window on the Eastern gable.

Edit;

There was one small window on the Northern wall on the first floor landing.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932122#Comment_121932122

There has been discussion about what really prompted Sophie to visit... and how she looked for someone to accompany her, whether that had significance.

But it seems a stretch re: subletting. It would mean the Hellens and Lyons to both be in it and stay quiet after the murder.

Mackinac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932198#Comment_121932198

The blue bread bin can be seen at the top of the shelving in the photo below.

odyssey06

There is so much misinformation about the case so this could be misreporting but this article I found curious.

This is statement from Daniel recalling the last phone call with Sophie. Note the time 930.

The timeline I have seen has Sophie making calls from 530pm to 9pm that evening trying to sort out cottage maintenance and housekeeping eg to the Hellens.

"According to what she told me, she had returned home about 9.30pm, I suppose the Ungerers had kept her for dinner. If not, she would have gone to a pub for a sandwich or would have had a piece of cheese and a glass of red wine."

Returned home from where?

https://www.thesun.ie/news/4137076/husband-sophie-toscan-du-plantier-statement/

Mackinac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932431#Comment_121932431

I find it difficult to get an accurate timeline for the Sunday afternoon. In Yvonne Ungerer’s statement she said Sophie left theirs at 5.45pm. However Sophie is alledgedly at O’Sullivans in Crookhaven around 5.

Day Lewin

""returned home" ....

If she was making phone calls she was probably at the house.

Did Sophie have a mobile phone? This was the period when they began to be more widely available but If I remember right, the coverage was hopeless in the remoter parts of the country.

(Who remembers waving their phone out of an upstairs window to try and catch a signal?)

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932474#Comment_121932474

I havent seen any report of her having a mobile and yes coverage very patchy back then ... who remembers their first motorola brick with extendable aerial!

In theory the calls could have been made from a landline in a different property but if we assume they were made from Sophies cottage then hard to reconcile that with Daniels "returned home" comment unless it was a short walk.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932467#Comment_121932467

And also making phone calls at 530 to Agnes Thomas. Suggests to me Yvonne Ungerers stated timing is wrong.

"By 17:30 Sophie phones Agnes Thomas, but Agnes is out so Sophie leaves a message on her answering machine. By 18:00 postman Thomas Hodnett delivers letters to neighbour Alfie Lyons's postbox and sees lights on in the first floor and ground floor windows of Sophie's cottage."

https://koudekaas.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-murder-of-sophie-toscan-du-plantier.html?m=1

Mackinac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932509#Comment_121932509

I can only think it’s a typing error on the statement, 5.45pm when it should have said 15.45pm - leaving the Ungerers at 3.45pm would make more sense.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932530#Comment_121932530

Hmm you could be right.

But that would mean an hour between leaving the Ungerers and reported sighting at the pub in Crookhaven. It seems like only about 15 minute drive.

Day Lewin

"By 18:00 postman Thomas Hodnett delivers letters to neighbour Alfie Lyons's postbox"

On a Saturday or a Sunday? Wasn't that unusual?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932565#Comment_121932565

It was the Sunday before Christmas so may have been doing overtime?

6pm though seems a strange time unless it was a pretext for a pop in to Alfies.

Mackinac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932565#Comment_121932565

I remember getting post on a Sunday close to Christmas before - the only time we ever got post on a Sunday.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932579#Comment_121932579

Getting post at or around 6pm on the Sunday before Christmas is/was not unusual in rural Ireland.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932651#Comment_121932651

Was it just delivering the post or was this a time when the postman might pop in for a chat and to receive some hospitality... was that a thing?

Just curious.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932651#Comment_121932651

I agree. We had postal deliveries on Saturday and Sunday at weekends at Christmas. It was to cope with the extra postal volume - everyone back then used to send Christmas cards. It still happens here at Christmas but is reduced to one weekend day postal delivery.

6pm delivery though does seem late but maybe it was the end of his route or he started late.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932922#Comment_121932922

Just delivering the post I'd reckon.

There were very large volumes at Christmas time, not Amazon deliveries like you have today but Christmas cards, lots of Christmas cards.

Alfie's might not even have been near the postman's last stop, he could have had a few more hours of work to do.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932198#Comment_121932198

What if Sophie was asleep and awakened by a noise outside; She looks out, and sees lights or movement or something suspicious. Depending which window she looked out, this might have been at the stone shed, or....what was the view from her bedroom window? Could she see across the back field to the laneway gate?

The only window with a view of the shed is the one in the kitchen, it

can't be seen from any upstairs window.

All the upstairs windows have a clear view down her front lawn to the lane and the gates, (except the window on the landing)

Floor plans curtesy of PhilMathers over on Reddit;

gf.jpg

ff.png

senga_60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932246#Comment_121932246

I have always believed that it was a holiday home for Sophie, family and friends only. When you say ‘subletting’, did Sophie rent her house out to tenants whilst not in use by her or her family?

I also read a few weeks ago that JT and IB had gone to the Garda on the 27th Dec to report a party that was held by AL on the 21st Dec and now can’t find it! If yourself or any other ‘poster’ has seen this report you would save me from thinking I’m going mad! Many thanks.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934564#Comment_121934564

I also recall talk of a party..can't pin it down now. Not sure if that was ever confirmed.

senga_60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934628#Comment_121934628

Thanks saabsaab. There was a photo of the report made which I will try and track down tomorrow. Shouldn’t be too hard as there are only a couple of sites that I read……………….famous last words! 🤣

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934564#Comment_121934564

Maybe this one, but nothing to do with Alfie though;

suspect.jpg

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934564#Comment_121934564

By subletting I meant in relation to your idea of the cottage being rented out or used by others... for such a scenario it would have to be the Hellens doing it? And surely the Lyons would have noticed it? Can't envisage a scenario where they both keep quiet about it post murder.

I haven't heard of the cottage being used by anyone 'officially' other than Sophie and the guests with her at the time.

There was talk of someone using the bath etc, that was a few years before the murder. Sophie discussed it with Josephine Hellen. They changed the locks and that seemed to put an end to such concerns.

I remember the post you mentioned, might have been an image posted by bjsc iirc so you won't find it text searching.

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934433#Comment_121934433

Thank you, very helpful.