Dealing with religious partner

throwaway5

Wondering if i can get some advice on some problems that have recently come up in my relationship with my wife, and our future with our 10 month old daughter.

So we've been married for 6 years, and have had our share of problems. Few touch and go moments in the middle (2018 in particular), but things really got good between us from 2019 onwards, and we started trying for out 1st child in late 2020. Baby girl was born last Autumn, and she's absolutely amazing. Neither of us were religious, and we had a humanist wedding. But last year during a tough period where her cat of 10 years was dying (and while heavily pregnant), she found god and has now become a born again Christian. She was always fairly anti religious, after some bad experiences with catholic school when she was younger, but she's a full believer. Reads the bible every day, listens to bible verses on the phone etc... and is a very different person to who she was before that. Her family (who live abroad) must think I've brainwashed her, as she's done a full 180 in the last 12 months, and is a completely different person.

I am an atheist, with a fairly strong dislike of organised religion. I've always made that clear to her, and that was never an issue in the past. I've also had an issue when someone told me they were religious or spiritual, but I've never had anyone close to me say this, and go so quickly down the rabbit hole (to my eyes). She tries to tell me why life is so much better with god, how she was saved (i **** hate that term), about how no one can do it on my own etc... When i then try to tell her that i will never believe what she believes, that i don't want or need a god in my life, that i have the people i need available to support me etc...she says that until i read the bible i don't get to say that religion isn't for me. That its an uninformed opinion. She's gotten through some really tough times (death of her mother for example), and now says its all because of god and not her own achievements, that she is a good wife and mother because god gives her the strength to do i, and I can't help but feel sorry for her at times...which is a horrible feeling to have for someone you love.

To be fair, it's not all bad. She is more open now, spends less time on social media (used to be involved in every "cause" she could find), and is a very good mother to our daughter. We talked about what she wanted to do after our daughter was born, and she wanted to be a stay at home mother. That was great, and has made raising her much easier. I'd actually say our relationship is stronger then it was before she found god, as long as we don't discuss religion.

The problem is with our daughter now, and i am starting to worry about the things that my wife will teach her. We were looking at buying some books to read to her at at bed time, and she wants religious heavy stories or babies first bible type things. I don't believe in what she believes, and she doesn't seem to understand why i don't want those books to be read to our baby. I also struggle to say why, other then i don't believe in it and don't want to teach what i see as falsehoods, to our daughter.

How do people with diametrically opposed views on religion have common ground? I've known for a while now that this was going to come to a head, and just haven't been sure how to approach it. Well, guess its time i figured it out.

Ninap

Your wife has started believing strongly in something unreal. Which is, in effect, a mental illness. Unfortunately such people don’t see the need for treatment or cure.

Mrs OBumble

Are you planning on teaching your kid about Santa, the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny?

HazeDoll

Obviously I don't know anything about your wife but I know two people who went from rational thinking to religious fervour. In both cases it was a precursor to a period of unstable mental health. In one case the person had a complete breakdown and was institutionalised.

I'm not saying that a religious faith causes breakdowns but religious delusion seems to be a common enough symptom of a number of disorders.

The thing is, if somebody suddenly started saying that they believe Elvis is watching them, Elvis loves them and has a plan for them and is the source of all their strength and happiness and they talk to Elvis and Elvis talks back we would instantly see that the person has lost touch with reality. Because Christianity is such a common thing it isn't seen as a delusion but it amounts to exactly the same thing.

I think a serious chat is required. Something is amiss with her and in her case it is manifesting as religious faith. In general is she somebody who gets very caught up in fads or trends? You said she was involved with a number of causes in the past, maybe throwing herself headlong into something is a way of masking a deeper problem.

If this is a sincere faith, down the road there will be other difficulties as your child grows up. Will you be expected to toe the line and pretend to believe? Or will you be excluded from some aspects of your child's life?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119259966#Comment_119259966

The OP is looking for help on what is described as a very tricky relationship problem. He doesn't need comments that trivialise and make fun of the question being asked.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058252111/dealing-with-religious-partner

Some thoughts occur to me, and not in any particularly organised sequence, but here goes anyway.

The pandemic has had some weird effects on people, especially when combined with other stress factors. Let's face it, having a baby is definitely a major stress event. It can also cause all sorts of fears and worries; you don't have to be Freud to see how having a baby, a bereavement (even a pet) and a killer virus on the loose all at the same time could leave a new mother feeling very uncertain and vulnerable. On top of that, having a first child fundamentally alters the dynamics of a couple's relationship.

Cats, lovely creatures though they are, don't cause major changes of this nature. If someone has completely changed their view of something so fundamental - and a point of view shared by both in the relationship - in so rapid a space of time, that suggests something significant is happening beneath the surface.

It's not for me to comment on what might be going on in a person I've never seen, but when someone presents with a major personality change following a combination of big stress factors, and if the relationship has had its bumpy patches in the past, and also when they may be carrying emotional or psychological baggage (I stress the word may), then the last thing you can do is just take the change at face value.

However, if you decide to lock horns on this it's probably not going to go well. Nobody likes to be told they're wrong, or irrational, or stupid, or peddling falsehoods. Even if they are - in fact, especially if they are. The reality is that as you describe the situation she's going through a set of huge and difficult changes, and she may well have issues she needs to process. And, to be honest, so might you.

With that in mind, could some kind of relationship counselling help the two of you? It might be easier for you both to sit down and start to figure out each other's needs and worries if you had a bit of outside help. A relationship counsellor who knows what they're doing can sometimes see angles a couple in bother might never see, and might possibly save you both a lot of time and pain. Just a few notions there, and the best of luck.

Jequ0n

Do you know where and how she picked up this religious fervour? Has she actually joined an organised born again Christian group or is it more self taught?

Has this fad been taking longer than her previous ones?

spaceHopper

She has a belief that here is a God you have a belief that there is none, both a form of belief – you respect hers and ask her to do the same for you.

Kids believe everything their parents tell them, fairies, the Ester bunny…. Let her read her books and you a read yours to them.   Be open that their mum believes in God and you don’t as she grows she’ll make up her own mind, we all did, didn’t we?

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119260834#Comment_119260834

that's not quite true, it may not be a belief, sadly this can be an illness coming on, possibly post natal.

This is tough for the OP and men in general in this situation because it's very easy for the OH to deny anything is wrong and blame him.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119259964#Comment_119259964

You are wrong, and you're not helping the OP with such an extreme opinion.

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119260893#Comment_119260893

I'm really confused as to what gender has to do with this?

OP, my heart goes out to you, it's an absolute balls of a situation. Religious beliefs are a massive deal-breaker for me but I have absolutely no idea how you handle the situation when they manifest in the middle of an already-committed relationship.

I guess, as others have said, counselling might be an option, but I actually suspect your wife might refuse to engage as, in her eyes, nothing is wrong.

Whatever happens, I wish you the very best of luck.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119260918#Comment_119260918

Genders are different and are handled differently , until you get in front of a judge that is

Hannibal_Smith

When you say she only started this in the last year, that's after your daughter was born? I would actually wonder whether its some form of post natal depression?

She would still have a public health nurse calling, can you talk with her the next time she calls? Or talk to the GP?

If you take the religion out of it, your wife has had a complete 180 degree personality change. Something is causing that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119259991#Comment_119259991

It's not funny at all and the op should answer the question. Doesn't believe in God but happy to tell the child a load of lies about unicorns, tooth fairies and santa.

Can't have it both ways.

What does he want read the war of the Roses?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119260085#Comment_119260085

Wouldn't be calling it a fad. My parents thought the same about me 40 years ago. It wasn't a fad!

In my experience born again Christians are complete psychos. I can only empathise.

Faith

This is an incredibly tricky situation, OP. It sounds like your wife went through an intensely stressful period and maybe felt like she was struggling to cope, or that she didn't possess the internal resources to cope. It sounds like she may have sought external coping strategies, and she landed on religion.

life is so much better with god, how she was saved ... about how no one can do it on my own etc... She's gotten through some really tough times (death of her mother for example), and now says its all because of god and not her own achievements, that she is a good wife and mother because god gives her the strength to do it

She's no longer even taking credit for her own achievements but ascribing them to a higher power.

Has she mentally checked out in any other ways that you've noticed? Is she failing to take responsibility for anything?

You've said that she's a great mother, so it doesn't sound like there's any particular cause for concern from the perspective of the child's welfare or her own mental health. That being said, this could be a sign of a mental health breakdown presenting in an atypical fashion and I think it's important not to immediately dismiss that, just as it's important to not dismiss that this could be a genuine religious conversion. You've also said

used to be involved in every "cause" she could find

She sounds like a person who has always been searching for meaning and fulfillment, so religion fits the pattern.

For the moment, all I think you can do is continue to support her, listen to her and be there for her. You can encourage her to take credit for her own role in her achievements etc, as this doesn't mean contradict god also being involved. Your daughter is so young that it will be a long time before indoctrination becomes an issue, and as others have said, many of us grew up in religious households and made it through just fine. You can agree to disagree with your wife - she has the freedom to read religious texts to your daughter just as you have the freedom to present alternative views to her. You never know, it may set her up to be an excellent critical thinker! If your relationship is otherwise strong, then I think this issue can be navigated through a "live and let live" approach for the meantime, and it may work itself out naturally over time.

However, if you do have any concerns that this directly relates to her mental wellbeing, you can always mention it to your wife's GP or even the public health nurse.

HazeDoll

It's probably worth remembering that when somebody with a deeply-held belief, however irrational, is challenged on that belief they very rarely reconsider their position. They dig in and adopt an oppositional outlook.*

I would say ignore it as much as you can. Bible stories for babies aren't any sillier than the Gruffalo, that's not going to do any harm. Where it does cause conflict try to base your discussions on specifics in direct relation to your lives, avoid challenging her beliefs in any way. The fervour is more likely to cool if it isn't an 'issue' between you.

*There's a fascinating book Will Storr, "The Heretics." I've recommended it to lots of people. It's a great read but also a real eye-opener. It explains how people reject reality in defiance of clear evidence and become more deeply entrenched in irrational beliefs the more they are challenged. Really explains things like flat-earthism and holocausts denial.

Quitelife

Is this yet another Anti Religion thread on boards ??

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@Quitelife please read The Forum Charter before posting in Personal Issues again. This is a heavily moderated advice forum. If you have a problem with a post, bring it to the attention of a moderator.

Agree with the above, I wouldn't be factoring in the possibility of another about turn away from religion. PostPartum/Postnatal depression or baby blues might have had an affect. But, doesn't need to be. Once you get that level of belief it's hard to reverse.

I'd advise to let your wife tell your daughter about her beliefs and you do yours. But, I'd not do it in a way that directly confronts your wife's opinion... like 'what your mum told you yesterday is completely barmy). She'll figure it out herself.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119261105#Comment_119261105

People don't commit their life to Santa and make life/death decisions based on a book that Santa wrote.

Anyone who is comparing these two things is being entirely disingenuous and they know it.

growleaves

Letting distaste turn into contempt would be a mistake.

Try to view your wife's beliefs semi-sympathetically, but be firm that you want your daughter to be open to other influences and ultimately allowed to choose her own beliefs.

As the general culture is such a mixture of beliefs and influences, it's very difficult to keep a person in a religious bubble unless you are living a very straitened life, e.g. only socialising with other religious people.

HazeDoll

I really don't think the religious beliefs alone are the problem for the OP. Lots of families function perfectly well with varying levels of beliefs. Believing in a god isn't in itself a bad thing, or a sign of psychological difficulties. The problem is that his partner has undergone a radical alteration that has affected their relationship.

Whatever your own beliefs I think a lot of people can recognise that a sudden transition to unquestioning faith is probably a sign that something is amiss. I don't think the OPs partner would respond well to "Darling, this is clearly crazy, is something wrong that you need to talk about?" I don't know how he would convince her to talk to any professional. Perhaps take the line that since the baby arrived you are finding it harder to make a connection, you feel a distance is developing between you. Don't mention religion at all. Suggest that you attend couples counselling because your relationship is so important. Maybe the religion issue won't come up in counselling but the underlying problem might get an airing.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262371#Comment_119262371

There may be trauma there under the surface.

Princess Calla

What support network does she have?

You said her mum has recently died and her family live in another country.

I think the fact that this is a complete 180 for her is more pointing to some form of post natal depression.

Being a first time mum, without a support network, during a pandemic when lots of baby groups were not operating would be very isolating.

It sounds like this is the support network she has chosen.

It took about 18 months after my first for the "fog" to lift....it was only after it lifted I realised how much of a fog I was in....now the phn did raise it with me, but you can't really help someone who's not seeing the woods from the trees.

I'd try to let this run for now, she's doing no harm to anyone especially your child. As for the stories they are not really doing any harm either. We're a non religious household but they go to a Catholic ethos school....I just view religion as a rounding of education....we may not subscribe to it but their peers will and will mention it,so don't want them totally clueless on the issue either.

Pissy Missy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058252111/dealing-with-religious-partner

I don't see why there can't be space for both beliefs, however if in future she is teaching her daughter that it's sinful to have sex before marriage or be gay etc, I wouldnt want any part in it

yourdeadwright

Iv never meet you or your wife obviously but i think you need to have a serious conversation with your wife,

To me and i'm no expert it sounds like your wife has some serious past trauma & religion is a coping mechanisms, strangely in the last years year's i know 2 people who suddenly became devoted to religion & in both cases it came out they where dealing with some serious issues form there childhood / late teen years,

I'd be almost 100% convinced something from her past has triggered this maybe set off by being a mother & now having a child of her own ,

Might sound a bit much to take in but you don't wake up one day as an adult & think all of a sudden you need a god to solve your problems ,

There is also strong links with adults who suddenly become obsessive with religion & schizophrenia

I'd say make your peace with it, to be honest. You'll be dealing with the same stuff when it comes to starting school, religion classes, communion, confirmation etc.

dublin49

hmmmm,maybe in the short to medium term find a little religion yourself ,enough for your wife to leave you be ,you really don't want to lock horns on this where they may be other issues at play like Post natal depression,or the need to believe so her mother is alive somewhere else ,any amount of underlying reasons ,the sudden conversion is worrisome although I suppose if you are going to move from non Believer to believer it probably won't be done in a half hearted way.Try not to look too far down the road for now as that tends to entrench views.Best of luck.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119259964#Comment_119259964

Come on. It is not a question of whether religion is real or not.

It is a question if it benefits the person in question. I would not judge anyone who finds solace in something and finds a benefit to their lives. And it makes them a better person for it. Clearly the Op's partner has found solace and comfort in religion. In essence that is what religion is just another mode of survival.

gormdubhgorm

As for the OP's issue with the child. The child can simply opt out of religion class and chose their own religion or none when they are older, That is what children of people of different religions did when I was in primary back in the 80's. One girls parent was I assume Hindu/Muslim and the other Catholic. There was no issue with the other classmates we just knew she did not have to religion class like we did.

Padre_Pio

We are all products of a cultural Catholic upbringing.

The vast majority are baptised, communion, confirmation, sang the songs in school, learned the Angelus etc etc etc.

Leven if your daughter is brought up in a heavily religious home theres a good chance she'll reject it in her teens like most people in the country.

So I think it's a smaller issue than you make it out to be.

B.A._Baracus

Op, she has as much right as to how to raise your daughter as you do. That's why you have a sit down, a discussion and try to come to a compromise that suits you both.

You ain't gonna get the answer here. Talk to her.

Pissy Missy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263023#Comment_119263023

That's what I was thinking, bit of a stretch to compare faith to mental illness, if it has improved her life and their relationship then that is telling. Now if it were heroin, that's another thing altogether

Ardent

This is a tricky one. It's nigh on impossible to change the mind of someone who has found god in a big way. In fact, she'll probably spend every waking minute trying to save YOUR soul.

Probably the best thing for your daughter is to be fully transparent about your different beliefs.

Liberty_Bear

Like the OP I am a deeply athetistic person. Key here is compromise and you do risk alienating your wife or yourself I suppose if a solution is not found. Maybe one way is to agree that both beliefs can be taught to your child, explaining how the world works. Your wife can explain her religious ideals and you can teach about humanism and that in your own beliefs that you do not believe in any ideaology of a creator or something similar. You might contact Michael Nugent in Atheist Ireland whom might have come across this before.

Big Bag of Chips

A number of off topic posts have been deleted. Posters are reminded that this is an advice forum. Replies are expected to offer advice to the OP who has come asking for it.

Anyone unfamiliar with the standard of posting expected in this forum should reread The Forum Charter.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263357#Comment_119263357

Nope. I think it's critical to establish if the OP wishes to avoid all "fairy tales" or just ones that he doesn't like. The question could equally be asked about banshees and Tuatha Dé.

Mental illness is a possibility when there's a sudden conversion. But it's not usually accompanied by someone being a better parent and part of a stronger relationship than before. Usually it's accompanied by reduced ability to care for yourself and for others. I'd guess it's unlikely in this case. But a chat with the PHN would not be out of order.

But the child is going to be exposed to the mother's religious beliefs. You cannot prevent that, unless you split up and can convince a judge to grant you sole custody, and are willing to totally deprive the child on a relationship with his/her mother. The first is extremely unlikely anyway, and the 2nd would be an absolutely a*hole thing to do.

Fundamentally, it comes down to whether the OP wants to stay with the relationship. The change in religious outlook will make it more complicated than you expected. But equally one of you could have got a head injury.

Whether you are together or not, there will be challenges as the child grows up and the parents want different things for him/her. But the only way to avoid that is for one parent or the other to totally remove themselves from the child's life.

For Forks Sake

OP didn't mention if their wife had joined a church, but if so, keep an eye on any bank accounts as well for unusual transactions, some of the more evangelical ones ain't shy about soliciting for "donations"

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119259966#Comment_119259966

I always think your comments on this forum are absolutely retarded. Proof right there. You're not helping.

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Warned for Breach of Charter. Keep it civil.

Akrasia

Before going down the road of mental illness or anything like that. Has the OP spoken to his wife about what caused her to 'find god' and has he had a talk about all of the reasons she previously gave for rejecting religion, and what has changed to make those beliefs invalid.

She is entitled to her beliefs but if those beliefs are an indication of a sudden change of personality that she cannot back up with coherent reasons, then it's a serious cause for concern.

The fact that you had a secular wedding indicates that she was a considered atheist, rather than just someone who can take religion or leave it.

If she has just changed her mind, then she should be reasonable and allow her own children to be raised as independent thinkers, free to decide their own beliefs when they come of age. If she is being unreasonable about this. It would be a big red flag that her mental capacity has been compromised

Caranica

In my experience "born again" religious people seem to take devotion to extremes. Sounds like your wife is following suit.

What type of school will your child be going to OP? Catholic or Educate together? Religion will be part of their life one way or another. Christmas for example.

As a young child I was given gifts of religious books, to me they were fairy tales the same as Hans Christian Andersen. I had loads of other books too and made it clear I preferred those. I didn't believe from a very early age, something my parents struggled with but they accepted in time.

I think the key thing for you is balance. You need to balance out your wife's actions. Tell her that yes she can pass on her religious beliefs, as can you. She can buy those books, you can buy others. No one position should be dominant. Whether your wife will accept that is another matter. Counseling might help to find a middle ground.

Neyite

The thing about faith is that it's a personal journey - or should be. So this is where I think you have an angle to argue against her trying to convert you - and maybe even your child down the line.

And just as your wife found her faith when she found it - by herself - she needs to let others do the same. So if it's god's will that you become a believer, then he will lead you to it in your own time and path the way that he appeared to have done with her. When she found her faith again it wasn't because someone nagged her to read the book, it was because she herself did it of her own accord.

In the meantime you can respect her beliefs without comment, as long as she does likewise and in that way, minimal harm will be done to your relationship.

I grew up in a very strict catholic household. I'm talking strict lent observance with penance and daily mass, all night vigils, pilgrimages, confession on a Saturday and mass on a Sunday, and nightly rosary. Even sex education was straight from the RCC doctrine. I won't be glib and say that it didn't do me any harm - I think it did particularly as being female. But another parent to counterbalance the one-sided doctrine or supplement it with real-world non-religious advice would have sorted that out I think.

For what it's worth, my partner still has some remnants of faith (I don't at all), so we are bouncy-castle-Catholics at best. But he would never expect us to follow suit with his beliefs. I also let my son know that there's loads of other religions out there and its ok to believe in any or none, and we chat about the different ones every once in a while. At the moment he likes the idea of reincarnation as he's sadly had a few bereavements in his life already so while he is unconvinced about heaven, coming back as a bug due to past deeds appeals to his 10yo sense of justice! By the time your child is old enough to ask the questions your wife might have settled down from being a newly minted zealot and become more understanding about faith being a personal journey so it might not be as much of a worry.

notAMember

First priority would be maintaining a good relationship here and find a way to deal with this, for your daughter's sake. Worst case scenario would be a marriage break-up over it, where access could be difficult.

The way you described your wife on social media previously, being involved in every cause, may indicate this isn't such a huge personality change for her, she sounds like she has always been someone who heavily invests in her interests. Passionate about her interest /focus, whatever it is. It's not surprising then that she would be so full on with the born-again version of christianity.

If we were lucky in Ireland, we will have grown up with the watered-down Irish form of Christianity, with plenty of easter eggs and christmas dinners, communion parties and celebrations of the local saint, and not so heavy on the confessions, bible readings, penance and doom. The Bouncy Castle Catholics as Neyite describes. The children's bible in that context is cultural education rather than deeply religious indoctrination.

Ideally you need to create your own role in parenting, and balance out the bibles with other stories, different religions, different outlook. And make sure that your family time at weekends and evenings is active family time, like walks in the park, going to the beach, rather than cooped up in a building reading the bible for most of the time.

This may all flip to a new passion in a few years, especially as the school days start. The PA will be looking for volunteers and she sounds like just the right woman for an epic bakesale, so I wouldn't dig a trench over this focus just yet.

sporina

OP how did your wife find this new found love for God? did she make a new friend while under stress or?

joeguevara

The situation about bed time story books is not a tricky situation at all. As a child every night we were read stories about Irish folklore and legends such as fionn macusll, cu chulainn and children of lir. We were also read stories like Samson, Noah’s arc, Zacheues.

they were interesting and entertaining stories and had good morals to them, but none were indoctrinating dogma. Bible stories and indeed fairytales usually have the same themes, characters and outcomes and kids just like the actual story.

the issue is between yourself and your wife.

HildaOgdenx

Mod note

As the OP has not returned to the thread for some time, I'll close this one off.

Thanks to all who offered advice.

Hilda