Science Supports Trans People - Here is why

22-06-2022 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236173#Comment_119236173

Well, I'm a member of that community and I find the whole thing regressive, not progressive. And most people in the community I know say the same thing. Unfortunately, we are being tarred by association with what's going on with the T and trans activists, in particular. So yes, many gay people support what's going on but so do many straight people. It works on both sides.

Also, the OP didn't even mention non-binary. How does science support gender identities such as staticgender (an affiliation with TV static).

Gay people have been around forever, so don't tell me that staticgendered trans people have been around forever because static didn't exist for most of time.

So it's important that any major declaration like "Science Supports Trans People" should necessarily include non-binary people, too.

kowloon · 22-06-2022 11:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236003#Comment_119236003

I don't agree that transhumanism is oppression. I do think it could go down a dark eugenics style road. But, back on topic, I think trans people should be allowed to alter themselves if they're sure that's what they want. I just don't see the need to condemn them that some people seem to be driven by. If it makes them happy and it isn't **** anyone else over it should be a non-issue.

23-06-2022 7:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119240491#Comment_119240491

For instance, some countries in SE Asia have thriving trans communities There is no fuss there. Everyone lives and lets live with no agendas, oppression olympics, activism, etc.

Such as? Thailand and Cambodia are likely the most "accepting" of the Trans communities, but violence, discrimination, sexual exploitation etc are all commonplace. They're certainly not living and let live..

As for agendas, the culture is different. It's extremely difficult for social change to gain any kind of permanent foothold. Traditional beliefs tend to be aggressively reinforced, and there is widespread social conditioning/social pressure to conform to particular beliefs/behaviours.

SE Asia "manages" because there's no realistic expectation of change.. unless it's forced upon them by western powers/culture, but the assumption is that they will be able to outlast foreign influence and revert to their traditional beliefs after a time.

23-06-2022 9:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119240658#Comment_119240658

I lived in China for 13 years, travelling around the whole SE region. Absolutely loved Cambodia. Incredibly poor but a wonderful people. And likely the greatest concentration of partially/fully transitioned Trans in the world... it's not a nice life for them. Thailand is slightly better, but you mostly find the Trans population connected with the prostitution industry, and the seedier side of things. There are the "Kathoey", but it's not really the same as Trans in the west.. and yes, they're more (but not fully) accepted as part of the natural order... but again, they're not considered to be same as Trans. I've dated two fully transitioned women in Asia, and their experiences weren't nice. But then, Asia isn't the greatest place for biological women either, so the Trans get hit by problems from all sides.

23-06-2022 11:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119241321#Comment_119241321

The point remains though. What exactly is acceptance, and once a certain level is reached, is that OK ? SE Asian culture seems remarkably good at accepting everyone while still maintaining social hierarchies - like there are in all cultures.

Ahh well, that's the problem. Western societies have spent the last 30 years tearing down most of the traditional social hierarchies in the name of personal/group freedoms, whether that was the place of religion, gender roles, or the way discipline was taught/reinforced in society. Oh, those changes needed to happen, but there wasn't much interest in replacing them with anything (as a social restriction).. so, many of the boundaries/traditions/social norms which regulated society have been removed.

Asia is extremely traditional. Oh, on the surface they'll be quite chaotic but in reality little changes. Social/familial hierarchies, along with acceptable social norms force conformity on to most people. Different types of conformity depending on what "class" or caste you might be. It could be reinforced by religion, spiritualism, historical conditioning (like China), or familial bonds.. but it's always there. Those who are cast out of these hierarchies are food for the wolves.

As for acceptance... Homosexuality is probably the best example of acceptance happening for something that was previously taboo for centuries. General acceptance is here (in western nations). It remains to be seen what happens over the next few decades, but we're on the right path. However, TBH, I don't see the same thing happening for Trans people because they're too obviously different. Homosexuals, for the most part, can merge with society to the point where it's not intrusive to other people. However, the Trans community demands recognition, and makes a big deal in reinforcing the differences between them and everyone else. Society is still very tribal. It's a natural part of being human.. and those who constantly seek to be separate from mainstream society, will never be accepted. (most social rebel movements were temporary for their members.. most hippies and punks ended up joining mainstream society once their rebellious phase was finished)

If everyone has a basic guarantee of personal rights under law or under cultural norms, then whats the problem?

Except we don't. Our personal rights are halted when it involves conflicting with community rights. Essentially, the majority. It's basic common sense. If everyone believes their rights to be supreme, then only chaos will follow. Which is why we hear so much of the "common good".

What happens when your demands for new rights causes others to lose rights they've traditionally had? Forget about "fairness" for a moment. Think primarily as a basic human. How would you feel if you lost rights you've had all your life, because an extreme minority demanded that their rights be superior?

There comes a point when the only way to implement some of these ideas is to rewire human biology altogether, which hasn't escaped the attention of trans activists I'm sure. It explains part of the connection between transsexuality and transhumanism.

Maybe, although the core problem is the expectation that Transwomen be considered exactly the same as women. Along with the demands from the non-binary crowd. If they were willing to accept an "other" status, there wouldn't be much of an issue. But they won't. They want both existences simultaneously. To be women, but to be recognised as different too. As long as that continues, it's going to cause friction and resistance to any kind of acceptance.

So, those looking to transhumanism are seeking something entirely different, due to the desire to evolve (naturally or artificially) beyond humanity. I haven't read much about Transhumanism, just going by the more traditional (sci-fi) views on it. TBH I've no idea how it relates to Trans people, and would really consider it to be a different objective.

piplip87 · 25-06-2022 12:17pm

I e a young person who thinks they might be trans and I have absolutely no issue with that.

The problem I have is with so called influencers pushing the HRT agenda on them so early on. They came in last week saying when they get a part time job, they will get onto an English website who after one brief information session, a monthly fee will send prescriptions for blockers, and HRT. This is ridiculous and dangerous.

There is many in the Trans rights community who are pushing to medicate without the person actually getting a diagnosis.

_Kaiser_ · 26-06-2022 9:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119233037#Comment_119233037

It's simple. It's not about the children at all.

It's about adults pushing their own ideologies and identity politics and using children who aren't conscious of any of it at that age as pawns in their arguments.

That's bad enough, but when it then moves into medication and "treatment" to enforce the supposed identity these adults reckon they are displaying, it crosses into a very dangerous place.

My attitude to this is the same as the one my mam had to the idea of Catholic ideology being forced on me and my sister in primary school in the early 80s. Not going to happen!

Her argument was that if, when we were old enough to understand the concepts and consequences involved, we wanted to become catholics (or members of any other religion) then absolutely no issue with it, but pushing it on young, naive and impressionable children by authority figures in their lives was beyond the pale for her - quite a radical stance for the time as anyone who remembers that far back would know!

Equally, if a person who is old enough to fully understand the meaning and consequences of gender identity - especially if they are also considering surgery or hormonal treatments - decides that they want to live as a trans man/woman then that's fair enough.

BUT... Just as with religion, that right to choice only extends as far as their own person. They have no right or expectation that anyone else will agree with them, will support or validate them (beyond simple common courtesy and tolerance such as calling them by their preferred name), and regardless of whatever steps they take, there are still fundamental differences between the sexes that changed identity and surgery cannot compensate for.

Ideology and agendas will never trump biology or the historical facts about a person.

rogber · 26-06-2022 9:28am

Billions of people believe there's a bearded man in the sky who watches over everything that happens on earth and rewards or punishes them for all eternity after they die. Those who are encouraged in these beliefs probably also have better mental health than those who are told it's a delusion. Still doesn't make it true.

Shoog · 26-06-2022 9:30am

It seems that what s happening here is that the political right has made this a wedge issue and as a conseqence most of the anti-arguments are actually parody's of the real issues.

The whole thrust of medical intervenions is to support a person in their mental health until such time as they can make an informed decision. This is especially the case for children who will experience immense mental distress by not responding to their experience of their own gender.

The right wants transgenderism to simply disappear and so where the conflict arises is when they try to block support for transgender people. Transgenderism has been with us since the dawn of man and so it will not simply go away and it's time for the right to move on.

_Kaiser_ · 26-06-2022 9:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251131#Comment_119251131

Nope, as I said above, what it is is advocates for a particular ideology using young children to further their agendas.

Young children have no concepts of sex or sexuality and so you'll see things like girls playing with traditionally boys toys, or boys playing dress-up with their mothers wardrobe. It's completely innocent and oblivious to any supposed "meaning" as it should be.

Where it starts to go wrong is adults taking this as a sign that they are in fact displaying early symptoms of being trans and actively supporting and encouraging it rather than letting the child take their own path.

As for the stuff you posted about the "right", well that's just irrelevant Americanised culture war nonsense that only proves my point - it's not about the child at all, it's the agenda.

Shoog · 26-06-2022 10:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251157#Comment_119251157

Your fairly much wrong on everything you just said. The only evidence of an ideology been promoted is from the Republican parties wedge politics.

Childen become very aware of gender issues as young as five ( most gay people identify this young age as the point of becoming aware of their sexuality), it's a well known developmeantal step. Parent don't like to think of their children having these thoughts but this is not material.

_Kaiser_ · 26-06-2022 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251275#Comment_119251275

This is not America. We don't have a Republican party here - I'm guessing you're not referring to FF or SF after all.

We would be far better off as a society if we stopped trying to copy and paste America's social problems and identity/culture politics into places where it has absolutely no relevance - like Ireland.

Shoog · 26-06-2022 10:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251291#Comment_119251291

What has happened in America is been adopted across the board by right leaning political parties. The arguments you are advancing are copy and past from American Republican blowhards - so forgive me for mentioning their source.

26-06-2022 10:37am

Actually, forget it. I'll leave this to others .

TomTomTim · 26-06-2022 10:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251127#Comment_119251127

It's insane how much you people have to keep bringing traditional religion up in the name of defending your new faith. The difference too should be obvious, you can't prove that God is real or not, but you can prove that a trans woman isn't a real woman. So if anything there's more reason to religion than your beliefs.

_Kaiser_ · 26-06-2022 10:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251304#Comment_119251304

So what parties here in Ireland are echoing US Republican policies on this topic then?

Or is it perhaps maybe NGO and advocacy groups trying to claim it's so to paint themselves as oppressed minorities?

Because in reality, most people in Ireland don't really care what someone else does so long as it doesn't adversely affect them or expect them to change their own beliefs.

Twitter accounts are not a reflection of reality, and even IN the US there is a growing sense of exasperation and resistance to this constant narrative of victimhood and persecution by evil "White privileged men" or whatever.

In other words, your argument has no relevance to Ireland's politics, and that's a good thing.

Shoog · 26-06-2022 10:43am

"Kolhlberg (1966) suggested a cognitive developmental theory on understanding the gender development in children. By the age of 2 years, most infants can identify themselves as boys or girls, which is the first step of forming gender identity. Children gradually understand that gender is something stable and that they would remain as either boys or girls. They have insights about how physical features define the gender of individuals and gain gender stability. For instance, men are those in beard and short hair, while women are those in dress and long hair. Sometimes, children make mistakes by thinking that external outfits will change the gender for individuals; they may think that if a boy wears a dress and lipstick, he will turn into a girl. Such confusions on gender identity among young children reflect their limitations in cognitive functioning, and this can be explained by applying Piaget's (1977) theory. According to Piaget (1977), children in the preoperational stage usually lack the awareness of conversation, which hinders them from maintaining a constant identification of an object with changing appearances. It is usually by the age of 5–6 years that children would attain gender constancy, so that they understand that gender does not change along with physical appearances and that their gender will remain unchanged in their whole life."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/gender-development

You may not think that having a stable gender identity by age 7 is absolutely normal - and that identifying as the opposite gender to you physical birth sex is also similarly set at that age - but what you believe to be true is not material to what is true here.

People imply that identifying as trans somehow equates to been a sexually active transexual - but the two are not remotely related. Few children become sexually active until their early teens - but their gender identity is set at least 5 years earlier.

Lets put this in conrete terms which are hard to ignore. I am presuming that those here arguing against transgender support are all heterosexual males, I could no more pursuade you to become a female gender identifying person as I could identify as a frog. Just try to imagine what it would take for me to convert you to been a female ? The proof of the pudding is in the gay conversion therapy which has never changed the identity of a single homosexual person (it has suppressed and oppressed many though). Why do you imagine it is so much harder for anyone else to be certain of their own gender identity as you hulking male icons are ?

26-06-2022 10:50am

Shoog, you should pay attention to the language used in the research you provided. Suggested, Theory. etc.

Just because something is done in a research paper, doesn't make it true, factual or accurate.

dorothylives · 26-06-2022 10:57am

This case is so said and I think it's only the tip of the iceberg. Tavistock is a disgrace and whistle blowers have been warning about this for a long time. I feel so sorry for this man and I think there are many men and women out there who have gone through these procedures who deeply regret it. It's not the first time I've read something like this and I think what's being done to these young people is tantamount to abuse. Encouraging young women to have a double mastectomy and prescribing them hormones to make them look like a man won't make them a man. Giving men breast implants and hormones to make the look like women won't make them women. Biology is what it is. So much of this seems to come down to young people with depression and who are struggling with their sexuality.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10953157/Man-suing-NHS-trans-surgery-regrets-bravely-waived-anonymity-share-ordeal.html

Shoog · 26-06-2022 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251355#Comment_119251355

This is the introduction to a research paper which explorers the issue of influence in gender identity. The part I quoted sets the tone of what is generally accepted as been the best available knowledge of gender. So your concerns are unwarranted. You will find no professional qualified to have an opinion who disagrees with this timeline for gender identity. You may find a few experts who argue that trans is somehow the exception - but without a foundational evidence to support that position they can be dismissed as cranks.

Now please address the issue's of why a transgender person could not self identify at the age when normal gender awareness arises.

_Kaiser_ · 26-06-2022 11:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251334#Comment_119251334

What the latter part of this suggests to me is that you just seem to have an issue with straight men. I have no idea what that increasingly bizzare paragraph was about to be honest.

It seems more to me that you're confusing research opinion pieces and social media crusading for scientific facts and projecting your own views on "hulking male icons" (???!!) into an argument that bears no relation to the reality of the topic at hand.

This is nothing to do with the "Right", the US Republican party, or Twitter crusading. It's about the welfare of young naive and impressionable children who are being used as tools to further an agenda that has potentially very real and serious consequences for them if not held in check by a much needed dose of reality.

26-06-2022 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251389#Comment_119251389

This is the introduction to a research paper which explorers the issue of influence in gender identity. The part I quoted sets the tone of what is generally accepted as been the best available knowledge of gender. So your concerns are unwarrented.

haha.. you just dismissed what I said completely. Sets the tone. Yes, it does. A suggested B. And the theories of A support B. Not facts. Not proven without any doubt. Theories are not facts.

Now please address the issue's of why a transgender person could not self identify at the age when normal gender awareness arises.

Perhaps you can explain to me how a child will appreciate gender in the same terms as an adult does? Children at a young age become aware of the physical differences between the sexes, and the superficial aspects of gender in how they, themselves, are treated, and those around them.. but they're not aware of the adult considerations of gender, unless someone has taught them such. The base aspects of gender are tied to biology, but most aspects of gender are connected to society, and the interactions between people... most of which we learn. We're not born with them.

Shoog · 26-06-2022 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251411#Comment_119251411

You haven't shown any evidence for your opinion that children are been used as tools.

PS I can assure you that I am a hulking male icon as well, you should ask my wife and children.

Shoog · 26-06-2022 12:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251416#Comment_119251416

In reply - could you consider becoming "female" if you cannot consider any chance that you could be convinced to identify as another gender - you will quickly realize the hollowness of your own argument.

I feel certain that you are absolute about your maleness and the very idea of questioning it is incomprehensible to you.

Its a lot of whataboutary.

rogber · 26-06-2022 12:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251316#Comment_119251316

You completely misunderstood my post. I was saying that supporting someone's delusional beliefs may improve their mental health but it doesn't make the delusion true. This can apply equally to religion and trans ideology. In both cases, people may be happier, but that doesn't mean science is claiming their beliefs have a foundation.