Science Supports Trans People - Here is why

Liberty_Bear

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S174360951534443X

Psychological support and puberty suppression were both associated with an improved global psychosocial functioning in GD adolescents. Both these interventions may be considered effective in the clinical management of psychosocial functioning difficulties in GD adolescents.

This study is from the United Kingdom. They followed 101 adolescents who received pubertal suppression at the beginning of the study and 100 adolescents who, for a range of reasons, were deemed by the team not ready to start pubertal suppression and thus did not receive it over the course of the study. Both groups received supportive psychotherapy. Both groups saw improvement in mental health (As explained by Psychology Today

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-52280-009

This study suggests that gender-affirming hormones are a helpful medical intervention for transgender youth. Gender-affirming hormones were found to be associated with decreases in suicidality and improvements in general well-being. This study is especially timely given recent introduction of anti-transgender legislation.

https://www.analesdepediatria.org/en-psychosocial-assessment-in-transgender-adolescents-articulo-S2341287920300880

A significant improvement (P<.05) was found between T0 and T1 in the transgender group in terms of emotional symptoms, behaviour problems, hyperactivity symptoms, pro-social conduct, as well as in the degree of anxiety and depression measured by the SDQ-Cas test, the STAI and the BDI-II scale. There were significant differences in these scales between the transgender group and the controls at T0, however, the scores equalised at T1. The families in this sample of transgender patients provided a very favourable environment according to the scores obtained on the family APGAR scale.

_____

I am not going to waffle on and on about this. The science is fully there that has evaluated the trans cause and it appears legitimate. The studies (psychiatrists and doctors and in particular that last Spanish study) detail a lower rate of poor mental health with those who can start transitioning to the chosen sex that they desire. Cis teens who related to their biological sex were shown to be happier in comparison to teens who were trans and not taking gender affirming hormones. I am reminded that a lot of the psuedo science that TERFs and others publish is akin to the science that was out with Social Darwinism. Social Darwinism seemed superfically to appear to be a legitimiate science in proving black people were inferior to white people though this was proven later to be total bullshit. Anthropologists have studied the phenomena too over the last century of third genders in cultures most notanly India and the Polynesian cultures (References - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%27afafine & https://www.thethinkingrepublic.com/being-counted/at-the-intersections-of-caste-and-gender )

freemickey

https://youtu.be/fg71tqpsVXY

No harm in particular, there are plenty of wacky ideas with large followings, all with their own research and proofs and arguments and conventions and so forth.

That the popularity of these ideas just so happen to be tied to the popularity of the wild west of the misinformation of the internet is striking. Or not, depending on on your starting point on the sanity scale.

I'm sure it would take me a whole 3 minutes to find internet proof of pterocatyls running aer lingus.

Topgear on Dave

I find it fairly wild that they can experiment with suppressing puberty in kids.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231611#Comment_119231611

Unless that internet proof includes peer reviewed articles then you're talking rubbish.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231611#Comment_119231611

Are the ideas supported by empirical evidence ?

A lot of people wont be able to rebuke the above I posted

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231671#Comment_119231671

101/201 people is not much empirical evidence. Very much at the more research is needed point.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231684#Comment_119231684

Its better than absolutely no research though what so ever. Remember trans people are a very small portion of the population so it follows any sample size itself would be all relative.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231692#Comment_119231692

Sure, but still far too small to begin to draw conclusions or to use it to back up arguments on the topic.

freemickey

If you're mad into licking people's toes, good for you, congratulations.

If you try to bend my ear about scientific rationalisation from the internet ether about why it's perfectly normal to lick people's toes and it should be taught in schools and have toe lickers shoehorned into every facet of life, no, I'm not entertaining it.

Just as I don't need to go to a flat Earth convention to "hear them out", I don't need to give heed to this either.

Again, this isn't something in particular, there are plenty of "out there" ideas that have stemmed out of the misinformation of the internet. Go lick a toe and be happy, if you're confident about it you don't need to convince anyone else.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058251182/science-supports-trans-people-here-is-why

I am not going to waffle on and on about this. The science is fully there that has evaluated the trans cause and it appears legitimate. 

As does most research until it has been investigated by unbiased and professional independent analysis. A lot of modern research is funded by interest groups, or by governmental offices with their own agendas to push, and that is reflected in the papers that have been released over the years. The fact that American psychology and Medicine have done a complete U-turn in regards to Trans "science" in a relatively short period of time, and also in a time when the woke/PC movements were at their strongest in their society, is worrying. There is far too much politics involved.

Also, in spite of the research done, the samples done tend to be small, and there is no interest in determining the long-term effects of Trans beliefs on the development of individuals, both in terms of their mental health, and their social development. There have been many cases of Trans who have transitioned, regretting the procedures, and reverting. There has been very little research into the why's of that, and whether the negatives those people experienced, are relevant on a wider scale.

Lastly, there has also been extremely little consideration or research into external influence which might bully/force/manipulate people into becoming "trans" and how that affects them over extended periods. It would be perfectly logical to assume that some of those encouraged to become trans, by people in authority (parents, teachers, psychologists etc) have unduly influenced minors into believing that they are trans due to their own personal beliefs rather than the true feelings of the child. It's well established in other areas of society, where parents force their kids into cheerleading, pageants, etc. Along with the emotional manipulation and conditioning over time.

And for all your research above there is no single definition of what is entailed by supporting trans. Are we discussing those who undergo physical surgeries, and hormonal treatments? How about those who have a single surgical change vs those who do the full transition? Those who believe themselves to be gender fluid? Those who believe themselves to be male in a female body? Instead, there is a generalised and broad approach taken, lumping them all under one phrase, and seeking to justify them all together, even though the factors involved are incredibly complex and different depending on the individuals circumstances.

So.. yeah.. I'll wait for another one or two decades to see how stable all these teens who have been encouraged to believe themselves to be trans, and see how they've developed.. before I start to accept that all this research which is so wonderfully positive, is even remotely accurate. Which I don't, right now, believe it to be. Nothing is that positive. Everything has negatives.. and yet, somehow the only negatives associated with Trans research is externalised. That's not realistic.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231713#Comment_119231713

So as per the post above, the idea that black people are lesser than white people could be correct?

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231704#Comment_119231704

Not in the least mate, this is the start of a conversation about the evidence we have on front of us.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231728#Comment_119231728

As per the links most of the research is laid out and transparent, rather than attacking the credibility of it ad hominem , what from the above is there that would make you think that this is incorrect? The push back against people like neuoscientist Jack Turban has come from mostly quarters where there is no science background, titling that as a push back against Trans Science is a stretch. What I want to know is how, a whole community of psychologists and psychiatrics could be possibly hoodwinked? The DSM that is used to classify mental illness has delisted it. Has been for quite a while. No one appears to be able to attack the science yet...which makes me think most of boards.ie who appear on these threads are mostly bluster and empty chambers...

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231746#Comment_119231746

Are you suggesting that paediatric endocrinology is not a hard science?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231735#Comment_119231735

Evidence is more than a bit strong... theories would be more appropriate.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231754#Comment_119231754

The data from which science is based shows us otherwise. Again there is no one refuting the evidence here.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231809#Comment_119231809

you quoted something that happened before most of us here were even born. It has no relevance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231774#Comment_119231774

No, it doesn't. Psychology, and the social sciences are notorious for needing to revise what research has supposedly "proven".

And yes, people are disputing your "evidence" here. How many posters have accepted your claims and evidence on the thread?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231820#Comment_119231820

Has no relevance? Care to explain why?

Also you conveniently ignored my other 2 links on studies showing that puberty blockers for "gender dysphoric" children leave them with stunted growth and no psychologically better off. Any comment on that?

And as for Dr John Money, well he defined gender as we know it today. I think its very relevant when people use the term, and advocate for trans-gender status, gender reassignment, gender dysphoria etc. It's all based on his theories and hypotheses about gender not being innate but rather learned. Unless you know more than the leading researchers in the field?

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231809#Comment_119231809

Now that is what Im talking about in terms of looking at the research

I can go along with the Tavistock study having read it. The research indicates that there is no significant psychological improvement in those 12 to 15. When you have the Tavistock institute coming out with this and these are the biggest proponents of it then I can respect that as straight from the horses mouth.

Dr John Money didnt coin the term gender but did coin gender identifcation and gender roles

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058251182/science-supports-trans-people-here-is-why

Except that that kind of therapy is close to being banned. The problem with trans isn’t the well defined GD (gender dysphoria). That’s been around for a while. Gender identity is a different ideology, while the former (GD) sees a mental condition to be rectified, the latter (GI) sees gender identity as trumping biological sex. In fact it sees people who are born into the same sex as their identity as an oppressor class, oppressing those who are in a different sex to their identity. It is anti medicine, and doctors are the bad guys, “assigning” sex at birth, in fact medical transitions are not even recommended, just a nice to have. No medical cert is needed. This is Irish law

GI promotes self identification, even in children. Therapy to ascertain whether somebody has GD is considered conversion therapy. And of course there being no way to tell, or not, any body of any sex can self identify at will.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231864#Comment_119231864

Firstly a thanks for that post, thats a very engaging post I want to respond to (and apologies if I sound patronising , not meant that way)

The evidence for gender dysphoria is few and far between but one study (and albeit a small sample number) put forward based on the evidence before us, that it is more than likely a genetic trait where there is a mismatch between the brain and the body. The study looked at twins as a whole and drilled down into the finer points. It said (note GID is Gender Identity Disorder)

https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1743609515339060

Results

Of 23 monozygotic female and male twins, nine (39.1%) were concordant for GID; in contrast, none of the 21 same‐sex dizygotic female and male twins were concordant for GID, a statistically significant difference (P = 0.005). Of the seven opposite‐sex twins, all were discordant for GID.

Conclusions

These findings suggest a role for genetic factors in the development of GID. Heylens G, De Cuypere G, Zucker KJ, Schelfaut C, Elaut E, Vanden Bossche H, De Baere E, and T'Sjoen G. Gender identity disorder in twins: A review of the case report literature. J Sex Med 2012;9:751–757.

Whatever about the politics of it, I dont agree that those who are cis (a term I hate) are oppressors as a lived experience is different for most people thus no real comparisons can be drawn.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231954#Comment_119231954

I have not seen much to the contrary of what I posted in terms of studies. We have pointed out here that psychological well being improves on gender affirming hormones and puberty blockers dont appear to work and established its no longer classified as a mental illness in cases. There hasnt been a study that has said its all shite..this ad hominem campaign again doesnt attack the evidence.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231692#Comment_119231692

It matters when you come to a firm conclusion in the title of this thread.

Seems your mind is made up no matter how bad the extant evidence base is.

The thread isn't about science. It's about preaching a foregone conclusion that you've personally arrived at.

Put another way, if science overwhelmingly rejected your conclusion, you wouldn't have started a thread called Science Rejects Trans People.

And science doesn't support or reject anything. It's a method of inquiry.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119232059#Comment_119232059

I dont think I have ever seen you tackle the science behind it but just repeat mantras ad nauseum , reminded of Animal Farm by George Orwell - four legs good, two legs bad (or whatever is equally as applicable in this case). At any point feel free to post the facts and engage in the science.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119232082#Comment_119232082

Ironic that you've brought up Orwell.

Men are women and women are men is exactly the kind of doublespeak that Orwell warned about in 1984.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119232059#Comment_119232059

And Science doesn't support or reject anything. It's a method of inquiry.

Science is the basis of drawing conclusions from observations and / or experiments

I dont want to get into the habit of correcting you every time ...

donaghs

Are you sure this wasn't "Political Science"? e.g. "gender-affirming hormones".

Actually Political Science is a serious discipline. This sounds more like a fore-gone conclusion.

Always suspicious when someone talks about what "the science" says.

Nonetheless, if this is an independent and verifiable study, it does add weight to the argument in favour of these treatments.

On the other hand, these treatments eventually become irreversible, which is a huge price to pay if someone decides they didn't make the right choice. Is that kind of harm worth the other benefits?

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119232091#Comment_119232091

And Orwell also painted out the hypermasculinised society that existed in 1984 with all male Pigs at the top table running an autocracy...do you really want to tell us that he speaks to the true nature of equality?

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119232095#Comment_119232095

I thougt the study posted above on the Tavistock piece about how puberty blockers dont work was quite interesting, indeed Ive my own reservations about them in a sense. The science from my purview is independent, there is no stigma attached to it and if it is not independently reviewed then its open to further enquiry sans ad hominem attacks . I understand very few regret transitioning but there are a small number who do so yes that has to be taken account of .

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119232128#Comment_119232128

Tavistock is a gender identity clinic that helps people with gender dysphoria.

In fact, the children's transgender clinic has had 35 resignations of clinical specialists in three years as psychologists warn of gender dysphoria 'over-diagnoses'.

So if we're going to talk about what's happening objectively on the ground, I think this must also form part of the debate.

The whistleblowers said too many children were being put on puberty-blocking drugs when they should not have been given the diagnosis.

Former staff said they were unable to properly assess patients over fears they will be branded "transphobic".

The concerns were raised by six psychologists who have resigned from London's children's gender-identity service in the past three years.

One psychologist, who wished to remain anonymous, said: "Our fears are that young people are being over-diagnosed and then over-medicalised.

"We are extremely concerned about the consequences for young people... For those of us who previously worked in the service, we fear that we have had front row seats to a medical scandal."

This question is more complex than you've made out in the title of this thread.