Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119724771#Comment_119724771

Let's be honest here, you'd nearly have to murder someone in the public sector to be sacked.

Its far easier in the private sector, especially during an economic downturn.

Kimbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119724786#Comment_119724786

Not so true anymore, I know plenty of people that have been sacked from the public service over the last few years for "Not providing a service" and no they didnt have to murder anyone. Most of the time it was for massive sick leave.

pc7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119724579#Comment_119724579

shorter working year schemes, paid maternity, parental leave, flexi hours (no longer time). These alone have kept me happy with PS, while I’ve a young family.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119724861#Comment_119724861

The problem is those initiatives are becoming far more common in the private sector. The benefits of taking less wages for better perks is being drastically erroded. Even the traditional "gold plated pension" has been cut down the the bone.

The limited work load in the Civil Service is a positive though. But there needs to be some positives at the end of the day.

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119724861#Comment_119724861

All because of fairly strong unions to be fair

It’s the trade off individuals (and families really) have to consider. Public servants likely won’t be as well paid as their counterparts in the private sector, but there are loads of positives of working there.

You’ll have idiots bashing public servants too of course, but practically every job now is advertised for open recruitment and people are free to try and join if they think it’s so good.

HerrKuehn

When comparing wage growth in the PS and private sector, you need to take into account that in almost all private sector jobs there are no incremental scales. So, any annual increase (if indeed there is any) includes increased experience, basically an optional increment.

The old style (pre 2013) pension in the PS is worth quite a bit, the new pension is similar to defined contribution pension with an employer contribution of 7-8% (which is pretty good but not amazing). It also means you will not be affected by any changes in pension age (the state pension portion will still be paid unlike the private sector worker). Negotiated salary increases should have the disparity in different PS worker pension entitlements. So, it would have made sense in my opinion to have increases for post 2013 until they catch up with the value of the older pension.

The PS still has significantly higher average salaries than the private sector, this is not the case in the UK.

https://www.businesspost.ie/news-focus/dan-obriens-quarterly-economic-outlook-some-cause-for-optimism-even-as-war-adds-to-inflation-sho/

The Irish PS is not providing significantly more complicated services than the UK one. The UK also has plenty of low end jobs like retail, so you would expect to see a similar difference in public and private salaries there, but we don't.

For entry level clerical jobs in the PS a degree is not a requirement to do the job, so I would disregard the fact that so many have one. I would guess that the reason the Irish PS has higher salaries on average is because we have more "managers" and higher level staff.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119724771#Comment_119724771

Maybe I need to clarify a bit.

In times of economic downturn the public/civil job posts are much much safer than those in the private sector as a whole.

Dodge

The incremental scales for PS workers is a bit of a red herring IMO. They’re usually used to bash people who “do nothing and still get a raise” but the scales aren’t infinite. An extreme example maybe but someone working as a grade 3 CO in a county council doesn’t get any increment increase after 15 years. Even for ‘middle managers in the civil service’, a HEO has 9 pay scales.

And the type of work involved for these people in the private sector (large organisations) would certainly see their equivalents have a similar pay structure with automatic increases (once targets are met).

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726005#Comment_119726005

I am not using it to "bash" the PS. It is a fact that in the private sector, depending on how the company is doing, you might get nothing at the end of the year. I have never worked in a company with scales. Where I have worked, it wouldn't be unusual for someone to get 0% increase and another person to get 10%. It would depend on how they have performed.

Dodge

Sure, there are more variables but most of my contracts have had agreed increases included (if targets were met). My point was that the public service isn’t the only place that does it, and specifically to mention that the increments aren’t infinite

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726076#Comment_119726076

In the PS you agree to be given the average bump in salary, basically everyone gets the same if they are at the same stage. This works well for those who are average or below average, but not as well for those who are above average. In tech jobs, software development etc it wouldn't be unusual for huge disparities in pay between people with the same job title.

Dodge

Absolutely. As I’ve said previously, if you want to get rich, the PS isn’t for you. I’ve a few friends who worked in the PS and had their qualifications etc paid for and jumped ship to use those qualifications and experienced gained there to much higher paying jobs in the private sector

As they should, if that’s what suits them

lizzyjane

Any idea when the backdated pay is due for workers?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119724579#Comment_119724579

We an be sacked and I've seen it on multiple occasions over the years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725756#Comment_119725756

In the same breath though we can say that in times of prosperity private sector workers make far more than public sector workers. I have a plumber quoting 600 euro a day labour for example.

Stating either though really doesn't solves anything or give context to the debate.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726416#Comment_119726416

Well, SOME private sector workers can make far more than most public sector workers. It's not an across the board fact.

A plumber is an interesting example.

Stating either gives plenty of context which is required from time to time when you try and outline to "hardcore" on the public sector side.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726543#Comment_119726543

And I agree. But don't over state the job security in the Public Service. It's very hard to get rid of anyone on a contract from either sector.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726562#Comment_119726562

Private sector reduncies are extremly common and set to increase in the short term I would suggest.

You just need to ask a bank to appreciate how working in Civil/Public role has more weight than in a Private Sector role.

Have yet to hear of them in Public/Civil sector.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725226#Comment_119725226

Most large private sector companies have incremental salary scales of one form or another.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726562#Comment_119726562

It isn't particularly hard to get rid of individuals in the private sector, you just need to go through the right process (PIP). Also, in the PS you wouldn't have mass redundancies because a company/large section is closing down. I have been through that a couple of times in my career in the private sector.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726607#Comment_119726607

For example? What type of companies? I have never heard of that in professional jobs. It would certainly not be the case in the tech companies which the PS workers often compare their conditions to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726657#Comment_119726657

You're correct it wouldn't be like that for the most part in the Private Sector. However in the Private Sector mechanisms are in place to ensure that staff performing well can get promoted or have a pathway to progress. This wouldn't traditionally be the case in the Public Sector where no matter how well or poor you perform when it comes to promotion you are on an even footing with everyone.

I think both Sectors have the their pros and cons.

For me I love working in the Public Sector for the flexibility and in general the stress free work life. I can't understand how some people want to kill themselves working in the Private Sector and wear it as some sort of badge of honour. Sure the money is better but you only live once.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726762#Comment_119726762

In the private sector (as it should be in the PS) if you perform well but there is no path to progress further, which happens frequently, you move to another company. Most large increases in salary come from moving to a better position in a different company.

I have always preferred negotiating my own increases and it has worked out well for me.

HartsHat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726657#Comment_119726657

Large professional services firms

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726788#Comment_119726788

Would it not be very much performance based though? Is it actually written into contracts that you will get an additional X after year 6?

I am familiar with the tech industry only, but the case would be that there would be performance reviews annually. There might be an increase in base salary and there might be a bonus. The bonus can be thought of as a way of keeping part of the salary optional, based on company and individual performance. I have actually given 0 bonus and increase to employees if their performance didn't warrant it, this was even in years when we were doing very well. In other cases, someone might get 20% or more in a year. It would be very individual.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726820#Comment_119726820

The incremental model in the Public Service is performance based in theory. If you don't get s rating of Satisfactory in your reviews then you don't get an increment. You aren't automatically entitled to one.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726828#Comment_119726828

Right, in theory. This is quite a while ago and I am not sure if there is something more up to date, would appreciate if someone could post something better:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/civil-service-performance-review-deemed-failure-as-majority-pass-1.1621423

In 2013, 1% of staff needed improvement, which to be quite honest just shows the process is a box ticking exercise.

HartsHat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726820#Comment_119726820

No, not for the first few years. Pretty much everyone gets the same increase annually (about 5k).

Seperate to that there is a bonus system based on your collected billing.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726898#Comment_119726898

Well, it sounds like more convention rather than contractual. In the case of the company having a really bad year they might not get it. I am also sure that there are areas of the private sector where "increments" or something similar exists. My point was really that you need to compare your increment + other increase with the guy in the private sector getting 5% or whatever as in most cases it includes the experience based increase.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726657#Comment_119726657

The large multinational tech company that I worked for had a range of salaries for each grade of employee, and each person had their 'comp ratio' depending on where they were on the scale. So you usually started around .8 or .9 comp ratio. A comp ratio of 1 was the mid-point of the scale, and a comp ration of 1.1 or 1.2 meant you were on the higher end of the scale. You moved up the scale each year.

Large companies with hundreds or thousands of employees use salary scales. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.