Separating strong and weaker kids at games

Killed

What I have noticed is that U10 & U12 kids are competitive, they know who wins and like to be the winners. I've seen them become resentful of weaker players being played and costing them a game. The camaraderie of the team can be destroyed by playing very weak players.

The coaches are following the guidelines by playing everyone but a lot of those weaker players don't/won't practice at home or with their parents. I saw a stat recently saying that players that don't practice at home are nearly 70% more likely to give up a sport.

Former Former Former

Under 8 is too young to stream by ability.

Some of the kids are only just starting to play at that point but they're old enough to know they've put in the weaker group and that's never fun.

I coach the u8 girls at a small club, one of our neighbouring clubs is huge and they (despite published club policy) stream them. It is absolutely due to the ego of the head mentor, our mixed group came up against their A team and got annihilated, and yer man was celebrating like it was Italia 90. 7 year old girls ffs.

I see too many of these guys doing the rounds of Dublin GAA.

KaneToad

I'm not sure that we should be using the children's feeling of "resentment" towards weaker kids as a basis for segregating children's sports.

salmocab

I wonder are the strongest coaches taking the weakest kids? If they aren’t then then any platitudes about kids getting better chances with the other weak kids would ring fairly hollow.

PARlance

Was thinking about the thread while at the kids training on Saturday morning. I had previously thought that my u8 year old might have been missing out by not training with some of the u9's... He might be in one sense but probably not as much as I thought.

Think someone mentioned it earlier but at that age, the kids really do develop at different stages. Noticed a few guys who were more interested in doing cartwheels last year who had really picked up and improved and were actually interested.

Was chatting to the mother of one such kid. She was saying that her husband had started making more time to play a bit with the son and the kid's interest levels changed overnight.

We might get too caught up in good coaches / bad coaches, A teams or C teams etc... The most important thing is probably showing an interest and playing with the kids outside of the limited training sessions.

CramCycle

For those who are claiming to be coaches (I am one), segregation on strength is pretty much against all you would should have been taught at your training to be a coach, at the safeguarding you are required to do etc.

We have lads who struggle to focus on the game, the direction they are playing and others who could put the Minors to shame at U9 level. Segregation would be a terrible idea and one that thankfully neither us or any of our neighbouring clubs take part in as far as I can tell.

If your club is segregating, report them to safeguarding because it is BS at that age and anyone who thinks differently shouldn't be involved with kids in sports.

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163428#Comment_119163428

Exactly, I thought I must have done a different course.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163428#Comment_119163428

Have been thinking about this thread over the weekend as well, including while out with our U9s at a hurling blitz, and I think it might the case that some of us are at odds with what we actually mean by "streaming" or how it works in practice. Now the word "segregation" has been introduced as well, and that would definitely be a step too far. It suggests a very regimented demarcation of "you're one of the good lads, come over here with us", and "you're one of the others, wasting our time and yours, go over there with the other no-hopers".

Will say at this point too that I think all this talk of "streaming" or whatever you want to call it is far more relevant in hurling than football. Am conscious that some real "football folk" might take issue with what I'll say next, but fact of the matter is that the basic skills of football are easier to learn than the basics of hurling. There's hardly one of our lads who can't yet kick a football from the hand, for instance, but there are several who can't yet strike a hurling ball from the hand.

So, you have different lads do different drills, according to their own ability. Over here, you've a group of maybe ten who are striking the ball to each other from the hand, and either catching it or blocking it with the hurl then doing a roll lift/jab lift before striking to the next lad. Over there, you've got a different group, who are being coached in how to strike the ball from the hand at all, and with no great emphasis on where it goes.

Far from being against coaching training, safeguarding, etc., it's all actually 100% in line with it - to coach each child according to their own ability, and do all you can to make sure each child enjoys it. A child in the group just learning to hit the ball will be delighted with himself if he strikes it ten yards at all, no matter where it goes. But put that child in with a group of others who can put the ball straight into the hand of somebody twice as far away, and he won't enjoy it nearly so much.

By the way, our "streaming" doesn't extend to the Go Games we play. I mentioned a blitz above. I had a group of eight players on one of our teams for that - two were lads who normally be "A" at training, three would normally be "B", and three would normally be "C". No point putting all our strongest lads together and seeing them probably hop off lads from another club, while at the same time putting an entire team from "C" together and seeing them being hopped off themselves.

Anyway, seems some have a more rigid understanding or operation of "streaming" than I do. To me, all it means is splitting your main group into some smaller groups at training, so that each child is coached at a realistic level according to what he's currently able to do. I said somewhere way back in the thread that there's no "one size fits all" for a group of 30 children in any activity or setting. To me, if you don't tailor your coaching according to the different children you have, you're actually letting them all down.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161461#Comment_119161461

For the record, what that other coach/club is doing there is exactly the wrong type of "streaming", and I'd be 100% against it myself.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119153025#Comment_119153025

Brilliant post. The more the merrier. I mean in ANY sport.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160327#Comment_119160327

An absolute principal of coaching should be that you do not talk to (shout 'instructions' at) your own kids during the match. Let the other mentors do that. Its human nature, but on the sideline most people are just looking out for what their own kids do.

Its not fair on the kid.

To be honest, and reading through this thread - its notable how little guidance is given by the GAA on this basic child welfare topic.

Most mentors are not qualified or trained coaches, they get into mentoring when their own kids start, they stop mentoring when their own kids stop. The reality is that by the age of 10 most of the kids will have played way more football/hurling in their lives than the majority of mentors.

There is a fair gap between the reality of whats happening, and the perception. Thats not to denigrate coaches/ mentors - they are volunteers who are out 2 or 3 times a week making the training sessions happen, while other parents are out on a power walk or back home watching Fair City (aka 'just too busy').

Uncle Pierre

Am just taking this bit from the post above - Most mentors are not qualified or trained coaches

They're supposed to be. You're supposed to have done at least a Foundation Level coaching course, as well as the Child Safeguarding course, before getting involved with any team. If there are clubs turning a blind eye to that, I'd be advising parents to raise it with club officials first, and then at a higher level in the county if necessary.

CornerForward10286

for eg u 13 in Tipperary alot of clubs have 2 teams, a stronger team and a weaker team. one could be A and the other D. in training u could do all your drills together but in a mixed training match if u have strong and weak playing together, the strong will dominate and the weaker lads are left demoralised with very little touches of the ball

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168354#Comment_119168354

Good man.

Parents giving up their time several times a week for free to mentor and coach other peoples kids, are clearly not doing enough, for free for other peoples kids.

Parents that are getting this free service from other parents should make a complaint.

Everyone has done the child safeguarding, that non negotiable.

shaungil

I have 4 kids who all play/played GAA . I coach 2 of them in a sport that does not allow streaming until under 13. Matches are all mixed teams and despite some coaches trying to stream we direct them to governing body and say we don't do it. And in matches scores are not kept

It makes life so much easier and allows all the friends to stick together as well as make new buddies.

My favourite argument from aprents are that the child really wants to keep score and thinks we should strema s they are being held back. Well my child wants to eat junk all day and play Playstation but that doesn't mean it's right or wrong.

Undoubtedly there are pro's and con's to steaming or not but my life is made so much easier and we've definitely held on to players longer because we do not stream in this sport.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169068#Comment_119169068

Do you mean this post the way I think you do? That you think that I, and everyone in the official GAA coaching structure, are wrong to believe that anybody involved in coaching children should at least have some fundamental grasp of the basics of actual coaching?

And that you believe instead that so long as somebody says "ah yeah, I'll help out with the under whatevers", then it's okay to let them at it, even if they haven't a bull's notion about coaching, and no inclination to actually learn?

A club couldn't think much of its youngest members if it doesn't ensure that their coaches have at least some idea of how to coach.

Deskjockey

The coaching qualification, the Garda vetting and the safeguarding course are the three items that are non negotiable you will find.

The safeguarding is only one part of the three items required to coach kids. The club I am involved with are strict on these (and its a good thing in my view) .

Tombo2001

Ok - maybe we are cross purposes - the groups I have been part of, we have all done the safeguarding & vetting

But the foundation course - no.

To broaden that out, at each age group there would be several mentors - with a lead in football and a different lead in hurling. the leads set out the drills, the rest of us implement them. The leads would have done the foundation, but the rest I dont think so.

Being honest - and looking back at your posts - I completely get how streaming can be a good thing if its done properly because the strongest kids can dominate games and the weakest kids can get left out. However the big caveat is 'if its done properly'. And maybe to your point, if all mentors from the get go have done a wide level of coursing qualifications, then the group is talking as equals and these things get done according the best practice.

My guess however is most mentor panels have a small number of dominant voices when it comes to directing how the coaching will be conducted, and lots of followers taking direction.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170814#Comment_119170814

Thanks.

I'm convinced at this stage that just as there's no "one size fits all" for how to coach a group of 30 or more children, and so you have to split them into smaller groups doing different things, that there's also no "one size fits all" for what different people here take "streaming" to mean.

Again for the record, I'd be completely opposed to splitting 8 and 9-year-olds into an A, B and C team for actual games. Matter of fact, it's so far removed from what we do ourselves that it didn't even occur to me initially that it might be what the OP or others meant. Our "streaming" doesn't extend any further than having different children do different drills during training, in recognition of their different levels of ability, and how some need extra help with the basics while others have already mastered them and can do something more challenging instead. But we mix them all together for games against other clubs, and we wouldn't have it any other way.

By the way, your club's structure is okay too, so long as the head coach over any group has at least some basic coaching training or knowledge. I just wouldn't like to think there might be a club somewhere where nobody over a younger age group has any training or knowledge of best practice, recommended drills, etc..

Anyway, don't think I've much more to say on this topic. Have said plenty already!!!

Girl Geraldine

I know sidelining the weaker players might seem harsh, but if you don't do it, your competitors will. It is the price that has to be paid if you want to win county finals.

Look at all the great hurling clubs and counties. They didn't get there by fielding weak players.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172936#Comment_119172936

It doesn’t seem harsh it is harsh. Sports clubs should exist to give kids a sporting outlet not to give them winners medals.

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172936#Comment_119172936

The discussion here is about young players, u8, u10, the weaker u8 player can often be a strong u14 if they have the interest, if you don't encourage them, try to improve them they will quit or not improve, too much time on the sideline and they won't be there at u14 and up so you will never know, you have to give them games according to the rules and in most cases even if you end up with a few more players than the opposition they will let you play a couple of extra players to make it easier(u8 etc)

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172936#Comment_119172936

A bit harsh all right....to say the least!!!

We're talking under-8s and under-9s here. There won't even be a county final until under-13. And if you don't win an under-13 title, it's not the end of the world, so long as players are continuing to develop.

CornerForward10286

Usually up to u 11here u play blitzes. If u can field 2 teams mix and match, stronger and weaker on each team. Don’t put all your best players on one team

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173079#Comment_119173079

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173079#Comment_119173079

Glebee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119174670#Comment_119174670

Have been involved in hurling coaching for around the last 8 years, from u7, u9 and u11. We always had two teams and always mixed the abilities for matches / blitzes despite other clubs and people from our club saying to pick a strong and weaker team. Just said no we were not mixing. Involved in u13 this year and the competative nature has definitely stepped up a notch. Its all about championship and the winning element is coming into it more. I find im guilty of it myself at times and have to take a step back and say these are still only kids from 5th and 6th class but its easy to get caught up in it. Dont have enough for two teams so the weaker lads are starting to suffer with game time in championship matches definitely and I can see them starting to drift if the interest is not there. Challenge games alright we would try to give everyone equal time and agree to play 3 x 20 minute thirds so we can give everyone a good run. Heard a good interview with Eddie Brennan last week about him hating playing hurling in national school and he hid his bag and hurl on teh way to school so he did not have to play. Only clicked with him around 16 of 17 I think.

Tombo2001

Perhaps people should specify which part of the country & also boys or girls because I know there can be differences in whats the 'recommended' approach.

For example, there is one major rule difference between boys and girls up to I think u11.

With the girls after a score, the referee throws the ball in in the middle rather than a puck our or kick out.

I remember with the boys at a young age, some poor young lad on a C team trying to take a puck out and not being able to, and then after three goes he is hitting it off the ground in the long grass, and the mentors on the other team telling their kids to put pressure on the puck outs, and its just goal after goal after goal until someone else goes in for a bit of punishment.

Myself, i've mentored both & in Dublin. AFAIK Dublin County Board recommends streaming from very early on.

Uncle Pierre

I'm involved with U9 boys myself, and am in Wexford. Recommended approach here is what we do ourselves - do different things with them in training all right, depending on ability, but mix them all together for matches.

I presume that thing with the girls re-starting in the middle is to avoid the sort of situation you're talking about with some of the boys. I've seen it happen all right, but to be honest, have never seen a mentor here so ruthless as to tell his players to push up and put pressure on the goalkeeper. It's usually more a case of "stand back and give him a chance". And if it's happening regularly, whoever's refereeing the game (at U9 level, it's always one of the coaches from one side or the other) will throw the odd one in around midfield anyway, without making a big deal about it, just to get the ball back up the field a bit.

Tombo2001

Interesting there could be such a fundamental difference in approach. We were at 8 years old (u9?) when parents were called in and a powerpoint was put up showing A team , B team and C team. From then on the kids trained and played with their own team, and its been that way since. Literally, a kid who has been on the C team since has not played or trained with a kid on the A team since, even though their training is on the same pitch at the same time - and they are teenagers now.

I wasnt mentoring at the time, got involved later. This is a boys team.

Narrative at the time was that this was on the recommendation of Dublin GAA and of course all the great benefits, especially for the weaker kids - my own view is that it was a **** storm.

Having said that, not many have left.

castletownman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119154015#Comment_119154015

And I find from (albeit limited) experience that it's the parents that don't have the interest outside of training that are the ones most likely to kick up a fuss if their kid isn't getting a fair crack at it, as they perceive it. As one prominent coach I know told me, a lot of these modern mammies treat underage training as an hour of free babysitting.

BrianBoru00

Mixing abilities is all well and good but the problem there is that the strong players dominate.

They can be far far ahead physically at u7 and even introducing a "no play" rule doesn't impact hugely it ll still be generally 2 of the 6 outfield players getting 50% of the ball time. The goalie getting about 25% due to lockouts. Another player getting 15% leaving the other three with 10% of ball time.

Now I rotate all players in all positions so the weakest players will get opportunities with lockouts at least but if you keep restricting the best players so much then it's them that become annoyed and your spoiling their enjoyment of the sport which isn't fair either.

During training we don't stream for most drills but for games we take out the weaker kids for 3 or 4 a side games with the more experienced coaches and do a lot of "in game" coaching.

We ll also swap in two of the strongest in that group over the the other one or two games depending on numbers on the day.

It's easy to say the kids want to play and the coaches are too interested in winning.its go games, no score is kept but THEY keep the score. Their competitive instinct is developing at that stage.

Now our attitude is to praise effort and improvement, Focusing on good plays by players in games and never discuss the score but they re still ' I scored 2-2' or " we hammered them" to each other .

Approximately 30 kids at the moment and I m hoping we have 15 who play at some level well into adulthood. Another five who play the odd game hoping that the rest who don't are still members and supporters of the club and retain an interest.

As they grow up they'll have access to different sports / past times so we are going to loose some , that's always the case. But the key will be that they can always recall their time here fondly.