Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121204330#Comment_121204330

That is bull too.

I didn't ignore any such thing.

I have seen abuse badly handled by almost every organisation in the country.

I have seen politicians cover it up across the political spectrum.

I have seen people use selective victims to score points.

And I would never define a political party by using those victims for cheap dirty points.

That is what you are doing when you cannot score points any other way. Out will come the tired old list of victims.

I'd need a long shower if I debated that way.

jh79

Doubt the families of the victims of SF/IRA think its a "tired old list".

Complete lack of empathy on your side. Child abuse, murder, rape, extortion all hand waved away because it was "for the cause".

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121204413#Comment_121204413

I'm 'lacking in empathy' from from someone who selects victims to get outraged about?

Give me a break.

I'll leave you to it. Not lowering myself to that cheap emotive rubbish.

Seth Brundle

Mod: I have deleted a number of posts which were way below the standard expected. There will be no more of this "SF/IRA" crap. If you disagree with SF then fine but make your comment like a mature adult and not like some crap Irish Indo hack. However, I will issue imediate warnings &/or bans for people who continue with this behaviour. I will assume that you accept rule this should you continue to post in this thread.

@Francis McM if you have a problem with mod decisions then there is a formal process under which you can file a grievance (see link below). Publicly throwing out passive agressive comments because you were thread banned (in a different thread) due to deliberately ignoring a clear mod instruction will not work in your favour - you have even taken to the likes of AH to moan about the threadban. I will also remind you that I have given you abundant chances and warnings so please don't think that I have or am being hard on you. If you disagree with the rules then you are completely free to not post. However, based on the post of yours that I've just deleted, I would seriously advise that you think through any future posts you intend posting within this forum.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2056019884/instructions-on-how-to-dispute-a-ban-or-infraction

Bobson Dugnutt

A broad coalition of the left would last about a week if the acrimony on display tonight amongst their Twitter armies was to be repeated at the cabinet table.

A PBP activist started calling SF “FF Nua” and one of the SF lifers took offence to it.

blanch152

The Sinn Fein twisting and turning on Israel/Palestine will have an interesting effect on their ability to form a government.

Do they stick with the likes of PBP and tell the world that Jews and Israel are evil, and will that gain or cost them votes?

Do they move to the mainstream middle that is horrified by the actions of Hamas, is worried about Muslim cultural invasion, but thinks Israel is overreacting?

Awkward being all things to all people when you have to make decisions.

blanch152

An article in the Newsletter outlining Sinn Fein's close ties with Hamas won't link properly and I can't post it here. Probably for the best, as the point isn't really about Sinn Fein and Hamas, birds of a feather and all that, but, more about the difficulties of Sinn Fein finding coalition partners that are in the same continent as them when it comes to foreign policy.

Sinn Fein is anti-EU, fervently anti-British, pro-Hamas, pro-Chavez, pro-Maduro, pro-Spanish separatists, recently pro-Russia etc. Apart from PBP, none of the other political parties are remotely close to Sinn Fein when it comes to this. They are way off the dial in respect of normal foreign relationships. Am I wrong in thinking this could be fatal to any coalition, not necessarily at the start, but as soon as the latest issue abroad erupts? For example, would we have been as supportive of Ukraine under a SF government? And what would that have said about us as a people, is that who we really are?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233277#Comment_121233277

TBH, I think the world is sadly about to see what happens when the combined foreign policies of the West give a serial abuser of international law carte blanche to do what they want.

I think Irish people will very clearly state that is not who we are, if asked.

P.S. SF are not anti the EU nor even fervently anti British.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233627#Comment_121233627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233642#Comment_121233642

This is supposed to be the Politics forum. These answers are dodgy even for After Hours.

I am fervently pro the EU and would never have voted for a party who were 'anti' it.

Contrary to the popular propaganda beloved of some they were not taking advantage of Brexit and their position had evolved long before Brexit.

SF have been saying that our place is in the EU for a long time now.

Sinn Fein’s 2009 and 2014 EP manifestos further built on the 2004 manifesto, stating that “Ireland’s place is in the European Union – but the European Union needs to change” and also to “build support in Europe for Irish reunification”

Sinn Féin in the EU: The Evolution of Self-Determination Policy Post Brexit | UNU-CRIS

And they also work with many organisations in Britain and with British political parties and people. They are 'anti British' policy in Ireland but the 'fervently anti British' stchick is more of popular propaganda beloved of many.

Bobson Dugnutt

I believe they see themselves as Eurocritical rather than eurosceptic. A more thorough examination of what that means in reality would be useful.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233717#Comment_121233717

That's what any voter should be doing for themselves.. Not listening to emotive and crude party political propaganda, like they are 'anti EU'. They simply are not.

Seth Brundle

Mod: below standard posts deleted. No personal attacks folks, keep it friendly and up to the standards!

@Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121214704#Comment_121214704

@Seth Brundle Just want to put out that issuing such a mod warning in post 705 of a 24 page thread is likely to be missed. The norm would be placing it in the op and modifying the thread title. Not telling you how to do your job, just know this is flagged a number of times on the feedback forum as even referencing post #'s (in this case 705) is of no use to mobile users as they can't see or navigate to those post #'s. Tried PM'ing this but message wouldn't send. No idea if its due to ongoing site issues or something else

Seth Brundle

It's there merely as a reminder and to advise of deleted posts but point taken

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216532#Comment_121216532

remind me how they are twisting and turning? SF dont support Hamas, but they support the Palestinian struggle. It confuses me how thats twisting and turning. SF have supported the Palestinian struggle for decades as have many northern nationalists/republicans.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233689#Comment_121233689

That's fine if they've changed their position however removing posts from their website detailing their previous positions regarding Russia and the eu is incredibly misleading and a cynical attempt at trying to change their own history. They are reportedly doing it again with the current situation.

https://twitter.com/TullMcAdoo/status/1712510849921806642?s=19

Why are they so ashamed of their own historical actions and opinions?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121235841#Comment_121235841

If that was an effort to deceive it was futile and naïve.

When challenged I haven't heard them reverse from their opinion on world affairs/politics.

It isn't the same as FG or FF. They have met Hamas and have not denied it.

I think Hamas have to be talked to just as the Israeli's have to be talked too and I thought talking was the only way to achieve peace here. Hume was accused of the same thing MLMD is being accused of BTW by his own party sometimes too.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236074#Comment_121236074

I agree it is futile and naive but it speaks to them as a group trying to hide things from prospective voters which I think is cynical and hypocritical considering its what they spend their time rightly or wrongly accusing the government of doing.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236225#Comment_121236225

If a voter does not inform themselves that is their issue.

The reality is Vin, political parties will change opinions, that is a fact.

I would expect SF to be no different, I think party opinion/policy will change to suit certain situations while personal opinions may differ.

That's nothing unusual although it will be portrayed as different because it's SF.

Look at the current Taoiseach's opinions in 2005 on the Israeli/Palestinian situation for instance, for proof of that.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236262#Comment_121236262

I've no problem with parties changing their opinions, I fully expect them to do it and would never vote for one that didn't. I have a problem with parties trying to hide their previous positions as they think it might make them look bad as Sinn Fein seem to be trying to do for several issues. Can you think of one good reason for them to have done what they have with regards to their own blog posts and positions around Russia, the EU and now Israel and palestine? They claimed previously it was website maintenance that led to only anti EU posts being removed and to my knowledge they still haven't been re-added.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236383#Comment_121236383

I said previously, if it was an attempt to hide then it was ill conceived and futile.

I think any analyst would have told them that they would lose either way if they did it. Previous positions would be used to damage them. or the action of deleting would. A no win situation. Dammed if they do, dammed if they didn't.

Not the first time they have found themselves in that unique position. FF and FG don't ship the same damage for changing opinions as anyone can see.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236404#Comment_121236404

Because FG and FF haven't tried to hide that they previously held a different position maybe?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236449#Comment_121236449

And they aren't pinned about it the same way SF are.

That is clearly obvious here, never mind elsewhere.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236504#Comment_121236504

And yet you can't provide examples of them doing similar so the comparison is useless

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236555#Comment_121236555

You believe they are hiding. I don't because that theory makes no sense to me.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236560#Comment_121236560

So why did they do it?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sinn-fein-deletes-thousands-of-statements-from-its-website-due-to-outdated-content/41443385.html

They seem to be pretty much admitting to it here, calling it "outdated content" doesn't change or excuse what they are doing

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236715#Comment_121236715

That confirms my thinking.

I doubt their opinion on the reaction to the poisoning has changed, as their opinion on neutrality and what that means hasn't changed as far as I'm aware.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236715#Comment_121236715

What comments on Palastine/Israel have SF changed? SF arent and havent been an anti EU party. Theyve been using their democratic right to disagree with the EU on issues they clash over. Thats democracy. Then you have the others calling them traitors to Ireland and EU shills. they cant do anything right it seems.

Why cant they delete outdated content? That rag you quoted isnt exactly level handed. The fear is real and the bollox and misinformation thats being published is onesided and opinionated - but it suits the rhetoric and stereotypes spouted by the likes of that paper

'Why did they do it'? website housekeeping. Sites do that at times. Mystery solved Scooby.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236755#Comment_121236755

I never said their opinions had changed but as you refuse to stop intentionally misinterpreting my posts I'll be stopping responding to your bad faith arguments and setting you back to ignore.

My last comment on this will be that they are in my opinion unequivocally trying to hide that they previously held quite unpopular views with the voters they now need to win over.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236832#Comment_121236832

based on what evidence? a biased newspaper? Same as the 'border poll' bollox.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236832#Comment_121236832

I never said you claimed it. I added to my opinion of the matter.

Claiming I accused you of something is classic bad faith debating.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236830#Comment_121236830

Sigh someone else intentionally, Misinterpreting what I'm saying to try and suit their own narrative. Once again I don't care if they do or don't change their opinions it's the attempts to hide previously held opinions and statements I have a problem with. I don't know anywhere that would described opinions and events from 2018 as being outdated BTW.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236847#Comment_121236847

They haven't done very well at hiding them, have they? Which suggests they didn't have that as a reason because anyone could work out that it wouldn't work.

Murph85

I wonder when push comes to shove , will some people who in the polls say they are voting sf, backtrack and vote for ffg ? One issue I see with sf is, will they upset the appplecart on infrastructure projects etc , we do.l not need to go for a reset on stuff that was needed decades ago here... more waffle, change of plans, billions extra in Inflation. Look ffg are a disgrace, but you could argue , it may be better to give them one more term, let key infrastructure have started construction at the very least, then potentially ditch them. Many variables...

Murph85

Many are prepared to vote sf on housing out 9f desperation. That makes sense. Non 9f us have a crystal.ball , but I strongly wager sf will be all talk. They are as nimby as the rest of them. Can you see them going for higher density etc ? Nah...

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236855#Comment_121236855

By removing them less likely to show up on a google search. So while it's impossible to completely hide them it still was advantageous to delete them.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236929#Comment_121236929

I'd vehemently disagree.

Somebody claiming 'oh look what you are trying to hide' is potentially much more damaging IMO.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121235428#Comment_121235428

That must be a new position or policy, because Sinn Féin’s links to Hamas go back years, Gerry was a great friend, and many of their reps support them too.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121237218#Comment_121237218

Many support Israel, who have repeatedly broken international law and murdered and killed as well.

When you support Israel's 'rights' are you supporting that? Are FF FG etc 'linked' to that?

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236847#Comment_121236847

pardon me - I read your post and thats what i could get from what you wrote. You said SF changed info somewhere about israel and palastine. I just asked what and where. The reply above doesnt cover that so i ask again - what info or opinions of SF's have changed?

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121237218#Comment_121237218

SF supported the PLO. Im not certain the depth of support they have for Hamas other than they are an enemy of Israel. MLMCD and the present SF certainly dont support them and neither do I. Never have, personally.

maccored

Israel created Hamas to get rid of the PLO. SF etc had supported the PLO in their struggle against Israel. Hamas took over - got voted in because people thought there might be peace and thought there might be less governmental corruption moreso than anything else, but I guarantee Hamas could be dumped in the morning by Palestinians if it were possible.. Hamas are there, doing stuff to Israel yes - but I suspect Hamas have a very different reason for doing it that trying to free the Palestinian people. Its like the USA creating the Taliban all over again.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246211#Comment_121246211

I clearly was discussing their mass deletion of previous statements and policies, read my posts properly next time because anyone trying to still paint me as having an issue with them changing their views is trying to build a strawman.

mode1990

The rock on which we will all perish ! Their slippery populism deceiving a generation , PAUL QUINN , MARIA CAHILL , & ALL the disappeared ! They're the PINOCHETS of the northern hemisphere !

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236885#Comment_121236885

Exactly. They arent going to deliver more houses.

Thats the irony of the 20 somethings voting for SF. I understand the youth want change, but if SF do get in, there wont be any positive change on the housing delivery front.

In fact, we could end up with fewer homes being built, if SF scare away the investment funds from financing new developments.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246519#Comment_121246519

so we are back to basic website housekeeping - a task many corporate sites undertake. Yet you find that somehow threatening.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247443#Comment_121247443

im amazed how many can see into the future so clearly

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250999#Comment_121250999

Its really not that difficult to see.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121251972#Comment_121251972

its not difficult to see the future? well done. you have no clue if SF would be good or bad for the country though - unless of course you CAN see the future. Otherwise its a 'IMO' and not any kind of fact.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121251972#Comment_121251972

Can your crystal ball see if FF or FG will fix it and the HSE?

You should get that news out there.