The grant needs to go!

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907211#Comment_119907211

No, you have to be scrapping a high mileage current PSV.

gilleek2

Ignorance. Got a taxi home the other day. He spent 30k on an Octavia (that didnt sound terribly healthy) and said there was no incentive to biy an EV. didnt want to suggest he may be wrong.

The Real President Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119913785#Comment_119913785

Well with the jacking up in electricy price to 40 to 60 cent pet kwh, 20kwh per 100km that's 8 to 12 euro. A diesel will do that 100km for 10 euro without being hampered by range or time lost while charging

The flexibility would put the diesel significantly ahead with far lower finance costs also

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119913834#Comment_119913834

He/she can charge for 13.75c per kWh on night rate with Energia and significantly reduced public rates on the taxi only chargers.

Also the benefit of reduced servicing and getting a brand new car on the road for mid teens means the cost of financing that diesel would be higher.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119913785#Comment_119913785

Guy hasn’t a clue , the NTA are offering huge grants to SPSV operators to switch to EV

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119908493#Comment_119908493

The most environmentally friendly car is the car you already own. A huge part of the lifetime emissions of any vehicle are in manufacturing and disposal.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119914371#Comment_119914371

This throwaway style comment has been proven to be incorrect a few times on the forum. A good example can be taken from Volvo's full lifecycle assessment of the XC40 https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270669/#Comment_119270669

The emissions of use far exceed the emissions of manufacture after a certain mileage. If you plot a graph for every vehicle there is always a point at which scrapping it today and replacing it with a cleaner to operate choice results in a reduction in overall emissions. The question is when this threshold can be met. It's really unfortunate that we don't have a grant system for conversion kits, as this would drastically swing the needle towards keeping the older vehicle but upgrading the drivetrain to a lower emission at use one.

The Real President Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119913932#Comment_119913932

The mid teens ? ? ? You're gonna have to put up a worked example or I'm marking that down as bullshìt

Night time is the busiest time, so they won't be there to charge then, sitting at a taxi only charger means no money is being earnt so that won't be happening either they just won't go to work at those quiet times

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119916772#Comment_119916772

Plenty of users here are on the Energia EV tariff from earlier this year with 12 months fixed price of 28c day 7c night. Myself included.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119914588#Comment_119914588

I should have said ‘generally’ so you’re right, it’s not an absolute rule. That Volvo case study seems to rely on making it to 200k IM’s, which is generally more the exception than the rule.

The general principle still applies- we’re not going to buy our way out of this climate crisis with machines. We need fewer cars, fewer everything.

The Real President Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119916997#Comment_119916997

So you're using prices from the past that are not available to anyone currently, yeah that's a great way to back up a point alright 🙄

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119916772#Comment_119916772

Here’s some BS for you.

I bought 3 eNiros from Pat in Kia Navan Road for €37,750 each last year.

PSV EV grant €20,000. Scrapped the older cars (Prius) into N2 Auto Salavge for €2500.

OTR price was €15,000 for a brand new eNiro.

Any OI want a better one, bought one MG5 for €32000. Got the PSV grant I’d €20000 back and the scrapage for the 132 Prius of 1500 this time. OTR for €10,500.

How’s that for BS 🤷‍♂️

It’s no secret the available grants for PAV drivers. Infact, if you search enough, you’ll find my posts from last year and there’s some posters here who know me personally.

With regards to working times, yes the busiest times are weekend nights. But the cars mostly work early morning. Airport and free now bookings. Maybe one night at the weekend. So the charge from the night before is sufficient.

And the taxi only charger is a dam fast charger so a 20-30 minute down time wouldn’t be unusual to grab a tea go the toilet.

So yes it can work in real life.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119917119#Comment_119917119

12.75c is the currently available rate to anyone from Energia. He quoted 12.75, which is available. Yuuge.

McGiver

Back to the grants:

Grants as typically executed in Ireland are useless and mostly an impediment to achieving the objective. Which is to change the human behavior by stimulating demand through a reduction of the commodity' price. The reduction doesn't seem to occur because the grant is consumed by the seller and/or some middleman. The demand is not stimulated and the behavior isn't changed either. It's a grant but a failure.

The best and cheapest subsidy is almost always a tax exemption, a tax credit or a waiver of a charge.

In the case of EVs, where we (the state/people collectively) want to change the human behavior to reduce emissions/pollution, meet existing international commitments and make transport more sustainable, there's no need to reinvent the wheel. Just follow the Norwegian policies which have been tested and executed successfully.

Waive motor tax, waive/reduce VAT, waive/reduce VRT for EVs. Increase/adjust the same for ICE.

I could imagine a tax credit, but that's more difficult to administer. Tax exemptions at source is the best.

Note: AFAIK 0 VAT is illegal under the EU treaties but a) Norway is doing it whilst in the EEA and b) Ireland is doing it for disabled drivers, so I'm pretty sure there's a way e.g. via an exemption which is a tax return, tax grant by the government so technically not 0% VAT.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/repayments-to-unregistered-persons/disabled-persons/reclaim-vat-vehicles-persons-disability.aspx

Pretty sure the Gov could do the exact same thing for EVs today...

McGiver

Btw EV sales and adoption are still so low in Ireland that the Gov could simply go for a full EV 0 VAT & VRT & Motor Tax, at least temporarily, and only have to marginally increase the VRT & Motor Tax for ICE to compensate.

I haven't done the maths but it's no rocket science...

There's some 2,200,000 cars in Ireland out of which 52,000 are EVs and 2,148,000 are ICE.

Motor Tax EV waiver cost - 52,000*120 = €6.24M

Motor Tax ICE increase to offset - €6, 240,000/2,148,000 = increase motor tax €2.90 avg per ICE per year. It's peanuts and here I'm assuming the Gov wants to be mean and zero sum.

Nobody would notice 3 euro higher tax. Bump it up to €10 increase and you've a buffer for some 200k EVs free of motor tax free on the road.

Monitor on quarterly basis and keep readjusting as the ratios change. Phase out as you reach milestones (52k isn't one).

The same can be calculated for VAT/VRT examptions balancing EV/ICE just with new sales numbers not total car fleet.

Irish gov don't need to be an Oppenheimer... But seems they have a) no goal/strategy and b) no clue.

Kramer

Nobody would notice 3 euro higher tax. Bump it up to €10 increase and you've a buffer for some 200k EVs free of motor tax free on the road.

They'll just leave the EV motor tax as is & bump up the other 2 million car owners' tax bill - handy €20 million 😀

unkel

I often wonder and find it incomprehensible that there aren't a few high level civil servant economists about with some persuasion skills who understand the least well known but most important one of the 5 basic principles of taxation and can convince front line smooth talking heads like ministers to implement these. For the benefit of all of us.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119925190#Comment_119925190

Is there a warehouse full of lonely EVs pleading with the reluctant Irish public to buy? Are you proposing to retain the €5k grant as well as all these proposed tax exemptions?

Seems to me that when there are a queue of people who would bite your hand off to buy a €60k EV, boosting demand isnt really the problem you have to solve.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119927180#Comment_119927180

Scrap the grant. Make it into a tax exemption or a tax return. Even worst case a tax credit. The grant is useless only serves the carmaker and car dealer lobby, but not the consumer.

Simply - copy Norway, adjust for Ireland.

There's no Irish solution needed. There's nothing that specific about Ireland (or any other EU country really).

And yes, there are plenty of EVs around. It's about the suply and the demand. Suply is a bit constrained but not as much as you think it is. I can guarantee you that the market would adjust pronto if it saw an increased demand in Ireland due to policies, just like it did in Norway.

168k EVs were sold in NO last year. Increased Irish supply can be met. 2.3M were sold in the whole EU.

EDIT: Only 20k EVs will have been sold in Ireland this year. Plenty of room for carmakers to deliver if policies changed.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119926371#Comment_119926371

The problem in Irish Governance is very apparently - a lack of strategy and a lack of balls 😀.

Usually lot of talking but scant of actions.

Therer's no clear objective, or the objective is only a "talking point" with no strategy/action plan how to achieve it in reality, so the result is that it's clownish and everyone knows it's totally not feasible. You know, like the objective of 1M EVs by 2030 🤣... 5% of the target and only 7 years to go, everyone knows it's a delusion at this stage given that there are basically no incentives, no investment plans, no punitive taxes to deter from ICE or any sort of actions taken towards the goal. But they still keep peddling it. It's embarassing and insulting to people with above average IQ.

Every Gov policy here is wishy-washy and no Irish politician has balls to tackle any sort of lobby on top (beef/agri, property/developers, carmakers, insurance cartels, you name it...)

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119926119#Comment_119926119

Yeah a good one 😀

But what is worse is that in reality they don't seem to even bump the ICE tax, which they could do very easily. So so easy to say "climate emergency", "climate commitment", "sustainability", "pollution" whatever. The Dutch and Norwegians have already done it and even the French are on track to do so.

Why it hasn't been done here doesn't make sense. Motor Tax for a comparable ICE in NL vs here is 3 times higher in NL.

I don't get it. Is there some fossil fuel/carmaker lobby at play here???

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119928839#Comment_119928839

Ah well the one thing the Irish politician is good at is getting reelected and good luck to those who attempt to triple motor tax or introduce even more punitive taxes on the majority still driving ices. who are already experiencing a cost of living crisis so that a small number of predominantly better off car owners can be subsidised to drive around in expensive EVs. It's not as if EV are not currently pretty generously subsidised with a €5k grant for cars up to €60k and no VRT up to €40k. In the current climate introducing significantly increased tax reliefs for better off people to buy new EVs might not go down so well for the majority of people who will not benefit from them.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119928729#Comment_119928729

Can you expand on how you think a tax return or tax exemption would make any difference compared to the current direct grant.

The only difference I see is that the grant applies to the purchase of any new zero emission vehicle by any individual. By switching to a tax credit system all you do is exclude customers who have not paid enough tax from the purchase incentive. The net result is exactly the same, the manufacturer will still inflate the price to include the incentive.

The price inflation is by design, the goal is to reduce the number of new cars that emit CO2 into the Irish market. The Irish market is too small for any meaningful incentive to change the behaviour of manufacturers which means the only leaver we can push is to ensure that a given EV is sold in Ireland instead of one of the other EU markets. By increasing the margin in the Irish market, the manufacturer will sell their EVs in the EU market that gives them the highest margin. If we reduce the incentives that means either customers will have to pay a higher cost to maintain the margin or the manufacturer will sell to another country which doesn't help reduce our own countries CO2 reduction targets.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119914588#Comment_119914588

It's not just emissions, it's the minerals to make the cars, the computer chips, the copper, steel, aluminium, all getting more and more expensive, the chips getting harder and harder to come by and there's the eventual what to do with the dead battery after EOL, and I mean EOL when it's not usable for anything any more.

Emissions are part of the story.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119927180#Comment_119927180

Finally someone who gets it.

We dont need any grant for EVs. You can't buy one right now, you need to queue for months. That is a supply constrained market. Grants are to increase demand!

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119929961#Comment_119929961

EOL batteries are extremely recyclable after their automotive and then 2nd life usage, material recovery from them is in the high 90%'s. There's no question of what to do with them. The only reason we don't see large scale automotive battery recycling right now is the lack of batteries that have reached true end of life.

As to the rest of the vehicle, the automotive industry has very high rates of re-use and recycling.

The total weight of passenger cars, vans and other light goods vehicles scrapped in the EU in 2019 was 6.9 million tonnes; 95.1 % of the parts and materials were reused and recovered, while 89.6 % were reused and recycled.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=End-of-life_vehicle_statistics#Compliance_with_targets_on_reuse.2Frecycling_and_reuse.2Frecovery_for_end-of-life_vehicles

unkel

No such thing as a dead battery. People are fighting over batteries when cars are end of life, they sell for top dollar on the likes of eBay. Even badly degraded batteries from early Leafs are worth a small fortune. And the move to LiFePO4 chemistry by several manufacturers basically means these batteries live for decades more.

liamog

It's a commentary you often see, don't build BEV's because the batteries aren't being recycled.

I always like to point out the concept of Reduce, Reuse, Recycle is in that order for a reason. I would argue we need to invest heavily in inter-urban charging infrastructure to reduce the primary demand and make smaller battery cars more viable, but the EV industry is doing great on re-using battery cells.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119930744#Comment_119930744

At the price they want to charge for public charging ? not going to happen. It will only be 2 car households who that might appeal to. Electrics are getting too expensive for most People and now the likes of VW are stripping out kit on top of that.

Most People won't want to pay high electricity costs for the inconvenience of having to wait at chargers and then if they are in use, broken, it's a pipe dream at present.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119930772#Comment_119930772

The evidence of increased numbers of people charging, and increased sales of EVs doesn't agree with your statements.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119930772#Comment_119930772

You know more than most thatr public charging is not needed every day, most ev owners do most of their charging at home on night rate

liamog

We see it enough times, people will spend extra money on a car with a large battery to avoid the few times a year where they may have to have charge mid-journey. I think that's a huge waste but is primarily caused by deficiencies in our inter-urban network.

If the network was good, even with the high prices, those same people would better off spending an extra €25 on a charge instead of spending €5,000 on the bigger battery. As @ELM327 points out, for those customers a very high percentage of their charging is done at home, the big batteries should really only be purchased by people who are doing weekly trips that need to avoid a mid-journey top up.

Red Silurian

The grant should go. Temporarily. Without the grant now there will be just as many EVs on our roads because the supply lines (of all car types) is is a disaster.

In a few years time the supply lines will be fixed, once that happens we should reintroduce the grant to convince those who are buying new, in an unconstrained market, to go EV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119930789#Comment_119930789

Yeah but there's a substantial amount of People without home charging that would otherwise have to depend on expensive public charging and at the cost it's too inconvenient to pay for all that waiting around.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119932380#Comment_119932380

Completely irrelevant though. Market rates. We dont give free fuel to apartment dwellers. Why should we give free electricity

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119930772#Comment_119930772

Electricity prices are likely to be sorted out.

Not because of EV transition specifically but because it impacts things like businesses and therefore jobs and therefore the economy.

Price of the cars......

All cars are going up in price - a new Yaris is over 21 k now and that's for a 72 hp 1 litre - not even a hybrid.

Also if you are right - if the EVs really are too expensive then 2nd hand ones get cheaper.

And *eventually* new ones will likely get cheaper as manufacturers respond to the market signals.

Worth noting that Renault are aiming for the R5 EV to come in at 17.5 k sterling.

Thats less then a Fiesta in UK.

In terms of charging infrastructure - you can disagree with me all you like - but the technology is there to create excellent infrastructure.

Your ID3 might be crap at charging but neither is it the best EV tech in 2022 can do.

The cutting edge of EV technology in operational service today is when Bjorn Neyland in a Model 3 does 1000 kms in 9 hrs 20 mins.

Let's consider how that 9 hrs 20 mins is achieved......

1) the Model 3 tested was extremely efficient. So it went 250 miles to the first charge.

2) Good charging speed - meaning shorter charging stops.....

3) Good infrastructure - good charger availability. Multiple chargers at sites.....

I don't believe its a pipe dream to deliver charging infrastructure in numbers....

Applegreen are in the EV charging business now.

SSE airtricity intend to deliver a charging site in Mullingar and follow up with more.

ESB gave a statement to Clare Byrne re price increases and as part of it say they will double rapid charger numbers.

Easygo are working with councils and Eir on rapid charger deployment.

A lot of work to be done but I think its doable and not a pipe dream.

What *IS* a pipe dream is the idea that we can keep driving diesels because some people think putting in charging infrastructure is a bit hard.

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119932438#Comment_119932438

I disagree with pretty much everything Mad lad is saying in his EV critic stance.

But his point isn't that apartment dwellers should get *free* electricity.

The point is that if current electricity prices continued.

Then in the EV era they will pay diesel running costs for a less convenient to them EV...

However the non EV issues with current electricity prices mean that action will be required on those prices.

Will be interesting to see what solutions come forward for people with no home charging.

Because it frankly does need addressing - the "charge at home" mantra is a definite barrier to EV uptake.

Even for those who can charge at home as it reinforces the idea that EVs aren't fully flexible motoring options.

liamog

Mod Note: Removed discussion of the Bike to Work scheme

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119931963#Comment_119931963

The supply will go to any other EU market instead of Ireland which does sod all to reduce our vehicle emissions.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119932728#Comment_119932728

What supply?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119933106#Comment_119933106

Every single one of those 222 EVs you see on the road are new cars supplied to the Irish market.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119932663#Comment_119932663

Surely the eventual solution to this thorny problem is the banning of new ICEs, then its a hobsons choice. The fact that EVs will be cheaper to run that current diesels will mean people who can't charge at home will be no worse off than at present. You can't solve every problem.. e.g. does Govt have to solve the problem of giving apartment dwellers access to free electricity generated from their own solar panels? Is it fair that guys with own roofs can soak up a taxpayper funded grant to install panels while apartment dwellers can't?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119933307#Comment_119933307

Dont full understand that point. The reason there are new EVs on the road is that people are prepared to pay the price at which suppliers are willing to supply at. The imbalance at the moment is not on the demand side and there is nothing the Irish Govt can due, other than lavish even more scarce taxpayer on multinational corporations, to influence this supply.

I'm still waiting to hear stories of EV supply shortages in the only other significant RHD European market subsequent to effective removal of EV incentives there, coupled with no ICE disincentives.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119932663#Comment_119932663

Yes, I was engaging in a bit of reducto absurdium there. However, it's not really a problem we need to solve now. We have a scalable solution for EVs for people who can charge at home, to the point there's a dearth of supply. If we have >(x+1) people who want to buy an EV for the next 2-3 years, why would we spend public money creating more demand?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119932728#Comment_119932728

If you remove the grant, my 222 model 3 would have cost me 5k more. No change to the manufacturer. Theres a big pool of demand, to the point that nearly new cars are selling for higher than the new model. Sorry, but I disagree with you here.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119934247#Comment_119934247

Agreed. In fact I would bet my life on the fact that, were the grant removed, there would be no impact on EV sales in Ireland. We are not in a demand constrained market. The OEMs could simply pass the grant removal on. In fact most pre purchase agreements are worded in such a way to allow this.

UID0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119934222#Comment_119934222

The guys with their own roofs and off-street parking had to pay to have their own roofs and off-street parking. When I was buying my house (about 20 years ago) the price differential between end of terrace town houses and semi-detached houses was about €30k (10%). Mid terrace town houses were €20k less than end-of-terrace, and apartments were about €15k less than mid-terrace. The extra VAT paid on my house was nearly as much as the maximum grant for solar panels. In any given location, there is an extra cost to purchase a home with off-street parking than one without (all other things being equal).

The solar panel grant has a value for every electricity customer in that it reduces the demand, and because of the way our electricity market works, the most expensive generators are who get cut. The value for the taxpayer in the EV grant is to stimulate demand in an effort to reduce the use of petrol/diesel for transport, but as the market is currently supply constrained, not demand constrained it isn't actually providing any benefit to the taxpayer in general (only to the consumer who is purchasing the vehicle). The money being spent on EV grants would be more beneficially spent on public/active transport or accelerating commercial/psv migration to alternative fuels.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119934361#Comment_119934361

At model 3 prices maybe, but adding €5,000 to the price of an e208 and it becomes a very expensive car and likely unsellable

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119937956#Comment_119937956

Do you think someone wouldnt buy it? It would remain on the dealer lot?

I don't think so. There will be someone to pay the premium. Even the likes of 2020 Konas are seeing prices increase to near what was paid in 2020! It's not just Tesla

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119938508#Comment_119938508

With a 10% deposit a base mode 208 is €395 a month, the electric is €513. I think €118 is just about the right spot for the TCO to balance out for the first purchaser. If you added an extra €5,000 to that price at the same rate (3.9%), the monthly price difference becomes €265 per month. I don't think a sensible person would accept that much extra, there's no way you're saving any money on monthly costs.

That leaves the manufacturer with the choice of reducing the price to sell cars which lowers the margin. In which case they'd be better off selling the car in a different European market. I don't think the car will remain at the dealers, I just don't think it will be sent there in the first place.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939256#Comment_119939256

I mean, an extra 100-150 a month isnt likely to make or break a deal for an EV anyway. That's around one tank of petrol or diesel these days. Dealers can't get enough cars, there's year long waiting lists, do you think really that they won't sell at 5k more?

In the US theres often more than 5k dealer markup. Even the Ioniq 28 had it. Demand outstripping supply