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Consultation open till 27th May on taxi fares and requiring card payment ( link in OP )

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,897 ✭✭✭trellheim


    ( the draft regs say 200 quid fine for refusing cashless payment and 200 quid fine for not carrying a payment terminal )



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,842 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Prices have to go up with fuel prices. Compulsory machine payment is mad though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,478 ✭✭✭NinjaTruncs


    It's compulsory that they will have a machine, not that all payments are by machine.

    4.3kWp South facing PV System. South Dublin



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes €16 for a SumUp machine is hardly a difficult requirement.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Wonder if I would be liable when network is down? and yes it does happen, I already have a SumUp machine and account.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,576 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Just state the the customer is excused the fare if the machine does not work and lo and behold there won't be a problem.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    You could get a Square Reader (like Sumup) as a backup, just €19 for the reader.

    In the next year, Apple is also introducing the ability to accept tap payments on the iPhone directly with no extra hardware required, so that could be your backup. The ability already exists on Android, see vivawallet.com

    If non of the backups work, then it should be a free trip, just like happens on Dublin Bus, etc. when the Leap card machines aren't working.

    Otherwise we will just end up back at square one with some drivers lying that their machines aren't working. So either backup, free trip or €200 fine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Ah but now we start to run up the costs, we're no longer on just a €16 Sum Up terminal are we.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Just as an occuring thought. Surely it will likely be contested in the courts by some taxi union or driver syndicate anyway, after all what other industry is ordered to mandatory acceptance of credit cards or face a conviction?, none that I can think of.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    An extra €19 🙄

    And if you go the route of vivawallet or the new Apple feature as the backup, then no extra cost, as you need a smartphone to use SumUp anyway (as well as FreeNow, Uber, Bolt, etc.).

    "Just as an occuring thought. Surely it will likely be contested in the courts by some taxi union or driver syndicate anyway, after all what other industry is ordered to mandatory acceptance of credit cards or face a conviction?, none that I can think of."

    It will fail miserably, LOL. Drivers can still accept cash when offered, they just have to have the ability to take card purchases too. The NTA absolutely as the right to set conditions on the operation of a taxi license, no different then requirements like most have and use a taxi meter, sign up top, etc.

    Plus there is legal precedence for this, given that Taxi's in London most accept Card payments.

    Be careful fighting this change or you could end up with the London scenario where cheap terminals like SumUP aren't allowed and instead they have to use a relatively expensive fixed card machine including receipt printer!

    I'd say suck it up and get with the times.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Ah but you have just increased costs from your original post about sum up terminals at €16 by about 120%, and that's just for an alternate card reader. What happens if your customer destination is somewhere like Peamount Hospital? Comreg has coverage there varying from fringe to good depending on service provider etc. Perhaps someone makes a triple sim phone so i can add a Vodafone to my Eir/3 sims?

    People seem to think mobile internet is infallible, I'll tell you (as someone with a card terminal and dual sim phone ) it's far from infallible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Mandatory as having to be able to take card payments not mandatory as in only taking card payments. 🤔



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 10,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭F1ngers


    Plus there is legal precedence for this, given that Taxi's in London most accept Card payments.

    How is this a legal precedence for Irish taxis?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    What about the taxi's that dont run on diesel or petrol. Their cost has dropped.!!!!!!!!!!


    Surely there should be an incentive for picking a "green" taxi



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Electricity prices have gone up by 30%+. Could be a case for increasing the fares of BEVs above the increase for FF taxis. Would also be an additional incentive for FF taxis to change over sooner to BEV



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "Ah but you have just increased costs from your original post about sum up terminals at €16 by about 120%, and that's just for an alternate card reader."

    I also mentioned three times now, vivawallet, which is a completely free backup, which you have repeatedly ignored!

    And I'm LMAO at you saying I'm increasing your costs by 120%, you are talking about just €19 once off or a total of €35 once off for both readers (assuming you don't want to go with the vivawallet as backup). That is absolutely nothing in the cost of running a business.

    If any other small business person heard you complaining about such a tiny, irrelevant cost, they would be in stitches. Even the smallest little stalls in farmers markets or little coffee stalls use SumUp machines or similar. It is simply expected for all business today.

    "What happens if your customer destination is somewhere like Peamount Hospital? Comreg has coverage there varying from fringe to good depending on service provider etc. Perhaps someone makes a triple sim phone so i can add a Vodafone to my Eir/3 sims?"

    Fine then we should go with the London model of a more expensive fixed terminals which allow for offline transactions. Well done on making it even more expensive so!

    As an aside, if you have a problem getting a signal, try stepping out of the Taxi, you will most likely get a signal then. Cars act as Faraday cage and thus reduce the signal. Shouldn't be a problem for 5 seconds to process a transaction.

    "How is this a legal precedence for Irish taxis?"

    I know it sounds weird, but the Irish and UK legal system are closely tied for historical reasons. We largely have the same type of legal system, with many laws stemming from the days of UK rule. Both systems are precedence based, while not binding, Irish judges will usually take into account precedence set by the courts in the UK and vice versa.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I've always found this reluctance towards taking card payments by taxi drivers rather foolish.

    I live a short distance from one of the busiest roads in Dublin, I could walk out my door and wave down a taxi in no more then a minute. Yet I never do, I instead use one of the apps to order a taxi, because I don't carry cash and want to pay by card.

    So rather then a driver getting waved down and only closing 1.69% on a SumUp transaction, they instead lose 15% to FreeNow.

    I'm not the only one, pretty much everyone I know does the same, it is one of the major reasons that the likes of FreeNow became so popular, people were finally guaranteed they could pay by card. No more nonsense messing around with cash.

    Guaranteeing every taxi took a card would mean people were more likely to wave taxi's down and more competition for the apps and thus more money in taxi drivers pockets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    I don't believe any off line terminals will process all chip and pin transactions securely and certainly not all cards will work unless you have a connection.

    https://www.mobiletransaction.org/how-to-accept-credit-card-payments-offline/

    These payment cards may have to be accepted in the card machine while you have an internet connection:

    • Visa Electron
    • Maestro


    You seem to think i'm totally against using cards in my taxi, I'm not but I do believe that the onus should be on the customer to check if the taxi accepts cards, I do accept them and i display the approved logo on my roof sign to indicate so.


    however, when asked i do say only assuming that i can get an internet signal at the destination



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Electron and Maestro are prepaid debit cards, like gift cards, etc. Makes sense that they wouldn’t work without a connection, as you’d need to check first if they have an available balance.

    The NTA could define it that only the standard Visa and Mastercards are accepted and would thus work with the offline function.

    Another option is payment terminals with in built 4g, they cost more, but they use IoT sims that work across all phone networks. Extremely unlikely that you can’t find a connection in Dublin across three networks, 3G or 4g and across dozens of different frequencies!

    The reason I’m being so hard line on this, is that you and I both know that given any out or excuse of any type, unscrupulous drivers will take advantage of it and say their machine isn’t working, etc.

    There can be no out, the NTA need to be hardline on this, all drivers most accept card, if card machine not working for any reason, then free fare, simple as that. It most work, just like your taxi meter most work.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    I just dont see the need for the mandatory aspect with the threats of offering free fares and €200 fines if for whatever reason you can't take a payment.

    How are you going to diffrentiate between the genuine problems (which do occur ) and the unscrupulous people who might damage the chip and then claim its your equipment at fault (again I have had this where a card was declined and i had to make a transaction using my debit card before the passenger would believe me that there was nothing wrong with my card reader and the fault was theirs)

    I haven't even broached the problems caused by drinkers and trying to remember PINs if verification is required.

    In short, mandatory is a step too far, if it's a problem then if asked and they say no I don't do cards then use someone like me who does. If drivers are losing fares they'll start taking cards voluntarily.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    I think the biggest cost to taxi drivers will be having to suddenly declare 99% of their income once this comes into effect. This is more than just the convenience to customers, the government know full well what is being earned and what is being declared and there is a significant gap.

    Of course there are many fully compliant taxi drivers and those that don't earn that much. But there are many coining it in on cash jobs particularly at peak times.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,087 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Spook, you really need to shut up and just accept the fact that a non taxi driver knows way more about your industry and how it works than you, who's been in the trade for two decades now 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Your opinion (i assume) of welcoming mandatory card acceptance is contra to my opinion. It would be nice if you fleshed out why you agree with bk that mandatory aceptance of cards is a good thing, rather than just venturing an opinion with no substance behind it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    No limit on Google pay payments. Tap phone and exit taxi, quicker than fumbling for change. No damage to any chip by tapping a card or phone.

    Drinkers don't have issues paying for drinks at a bar with their card/phone so no reason for a taxi payment to be any different.

    A lot of taxi drivers will resist this because their income will be known by Revenue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie



    People do seem to be forgetting that the taxi isn't like a bricks n mortar establishment where you can likely expect a reliable signal ( particularly in city/town centres) or if not then a wifi connection you can connect to, but the taxi is totally reliant on the mobile network.

    But doesn't google pay etc. rely on an internet connection to work? So now your out in the sticks relying on two different internet connections.

    Post edited by Spook_ie on


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    No, Google Pay and Apple Pay don't need an internet connection to work, they store your card details locally in the secure enclave on the phone. Basically they act just like your card, which also doesn't require an internet connection.

    Offline terminals will work fine without an internet connection too. So really there is no excuse not to accept payment via card.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    I'll take your word for it but I don't actually see how the banks will honor payments when there are insufficient funds in an account and they haven't checked it during an online transaction to decline it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,087 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin




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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Err... Do you think credit or debit cards have an internet connection built into the card themselves!

    This is nothing new, it has always been this way. Think about with Credit Cards there are no funds in an account, it is the whole point of them, they are credit!

    Generally speaking banks are extremely happy when a debit card has insufficient funds, that means the customer has to pay overdraft fees, nice earner €€€ for banks.

    I'm sure you'll mention some crazy scheme where someone opens a bank account to just do a runner on a taxi fare, LMAO. These days you have to give a lot of personal information to open a bank account, you are unlikely to get away without paying your debt to the bank. If there is some fraud it will usually be aimed at transactions worth thousands, not small taxi fares.



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