its likely taxi fares will go up as the quid pro quo here ... anyway click in and let them know how you feel
As I said there are gaps in coverage inside the M50 and in the general region, right down to 2G and lower. Now, in most places this does not matter, but in the rare case where a cab terminal cannot establish a connection there will be issues. For example if you are down the back of piperstown
I would assume that the in-flight Ryanair transactions are stored on the machine and only relayed on ground. I've bought coffee on board and the Ulster Bank notification about a card payment that usually pops up within half a minute or so didn't appear until a good while after landing. If I wasn't quitting ULSB at the moment I'd be willing to even check how long it takes on my next flight.
It's possible, or they work offline as described above and sync on landing (after the seat belt signs have been switched off).
The point moreso is that the customer phone is in airplane mode, so it doesn't have a internet round trip.
That means that the "black hole" no coverage is basically only a potential problem for the terminal in the taxi. If such a situation arose, I'm sure the driver could try again in an area of more coverage, or just have a multi provider connection.
Nobody pays half their earnings to Revenue
Are Ryanair in flight transactions done over satcom then ? I did not know that.
Better make sure that your IoT isn't reliant on 2g/3g soon
Such a shame that all their customers didn't have Google Pay or Apple Pay, I assume you're going to tell me that they worked fine
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0321/1287673-opayo/
"Google Pay can perform transactions offline but you'll need to connect to the internet from time to time so that the app can sync with Google's servers."
Basically Google Pay stores a number of tokens locally which you can use for offline payment. Obviously you need an internet connection to first set it up and to sync from time to time, but it does support offline payments.
Apple Pay doesn't need internet either:
Just a FYI, as it occurred at 36000 feet, Ryanair accept phone payment. And being Ryanair, they wait for the transaction to be successful before they get your fellow passenger's food.
Because it's a disincentive to work. For every €100 earned , €40 goes on expenses. Of the €60 left the taxman wants half. It's why I leave my part time taxi sitting idle in the driveway and why my employer can't cover shifts. Staff are not willing to do O/T and pay half in taxes. Work has to pay at the end of the day. This is why there's a shortage of Taxis. The returns just aren't there. It's simply not worth the be trouble.
Why should taxi drivers pay a different rates of tax to anyone else in society?
If a person makes net profit of €40k, then they pay the same tax as a PAYE worker on the same amount.
50% of something is better than 50% of nothing.
BTW I still remember the credit card days of old when if you were buying something in excess of whatever value was imposed by the bank required an authorisation code be obtained via POTS and written onto the credit card slip. Pretty much the same as now except it's all done electronically over networks today.
So generally speaking, you can use the term but no one else can. I'm pretty sure there's likely to be something in the code of practice that doesn't allow the banks to do such sharp practice, There'd be hell to pay if they were.
Anyway i still think you are wrong and so it would appear do Google Pay
Detailed Google Pay transaction process in shops
Figure 1: The flow of an NFC payment
There's already a shortage of Taxis. They should be trying to encourage drivers to enter the business not putting barriers in the way. It's a difficult enough job listening to drunken know it all duckheads without giving half of your earnings to the taxman.
"There are certain blackspots with no Internet connectivity in Dublin ( on all networks, no 3g/4g/5g ) and I'm not talking up in the hills or fields . There are not many though."
Keep in mind 2G is also an option and tends to have wider coverage. These machines use tiny amounts of data, it isn't like video streaming, you'd be surprised what you could send on a frequency hoping IOT/World SIM.
"In relation to your point, can you turn a SumUp or Elavon machine to offline mode ? I didnt know you could do that ."
The basic Sumup device, no, it doesn't have an offline mode. I believe most Elavon Machines do have an offline mode, but you should check your particular model of machine.
This whole conversation is BS IMO. If you are worried about internet connection, then get a card reader with an IoT SIM, they work across all mobile networks, 3g/4g and every major radio frequency. They basically jump between networks and frequencies until they find a connection. There is no way you won't find a connection with one of these anywhere in Dublin.
There are certain blackspots with no Internet connectivity in Dublin ( on all networks, no 3g/4g/5g ) and I'm not talking up in the hills or fields . There are not many though.
In relation to your point, can you turn a SumUp or Elavon machine to offline mode ? I didnt know you could do that .
Trying to understand taxi driver logic is a fool's errand. My dad was one for a few years and he could never understand how their minds worked. More than once he'd do a last fare at a cut price if someone seemed stuck, rest of the drivers would **** people off and then sit at the rank til 6am then go home. Or my sister was expensing €150-200 taxis home from work a few years ago, could be waiting half an hour in Dublin city centre on a Tuesday night while her mates got one straight away. Most of the drivers would then be grumbling about the long trip as though they'd make more in 1.5 hours shuttling around Dublin rather than a simple straight run on a motorway. 🤨
No point in saying "Generally Speaking".
You were complaining about how to take a card payment in the extraordinary situation that you don't have an internet connection. Well solutions exist for this, offline terminals exist and are used widely in the payment industry.
Of course banks would prefer all transactions be online for obvious reasons, but they understand that there are circumstances where it isn't always possible and offer the offline option. Imagine if the internet goes down in Tesco for a few hours, do you think they sit there not taking any payments! Of course not, they flip their terminals over to offline mode and continue to do business.
"And don't treat me as a fool, Yes I know that credit cards don't have a wifi connection, however Google Pay etc does have internet via your phone network or wifi connection."
But again, your phone doesn't need the internet connection to make a payment. It simply wouldn't make any sense to force that on mobile payments. You wouldn't a situation where a person couldn't pay for a bus or a bottle of water if they had no credit on their phone account or didn't have an internet connection. It isn't a requirement for a credit/debit card, so why would they make it a requirement for a phone?
I've worked with this tech, I can send you all the documentation on this for both Apple and Google that an internet conenction isn't necessary and how secure enclaves work if your interested.
Generally speaking
1 Credit Cards are verified real time, very few card impressions (off line transactions ) are used now, even when you do a card not present transaction over the internet or phone needing your CVV number they check to see if you have a sufficent credit balance for the purchase
2 Debit cards I know my debit card won't work unless there are sufficent funds in my account and that it is checked in real time. No connection to the banks computers = no use card
And don't treat me as a fool, Yes I know that credit cards don't have a wifi connection, however Google Pay etc does have internet via your phone network or wifi connection.
As regards fraud I only said there is nothing to stop people saying that there's something wrong with my equipment stopping me from taking card payment so therefore the fare should be free. As you might have sussed that is something I'm totally against.
Err... Do you think credit or debit cards have an internet connection built into the card themselves!
This is nothing new, it has always been this way. Think about with Credit Cards there are no funds in an account, it is the whole point of them, they are credit!
Generally speaking banks are extremely happy when a debit card has insufficient funds, that means the customer has to pay overdraft fees, nice earner €€€ for banks.
I'm sure you'll mention some crazy scheme where someone opens a bank account to just do a runner on a taxi fare, LMAO. These days you have to give a lot of personal information to open a bank account, you are unlikely to get away without paying your debt to the bank. If there is some fraud it will usually be aimed at transactions worth thousands, not small taxi fares.
You missed the sarcasm, mate :)
I'll take your word for it but I don't actually see how the banks will honor payments when there are insufficient funds in an account and they haven't checked it during an online transaction to decline it.
No, Google Pay and Apple Pay don't need an internet connection to work, they store your card details locally in the secure enclave on the phone. Basically they act just like your card, which also doesn't require an internet connection.
Offline terminals will work fine without an internet connection too. So really there is no excuse not to accept payment via card.
People do seem to be forgetting that the taxi isn't like a bricks n mortar establishment where you can likely expect a reliable signal ( particularly in city/town centres) or if not then a wifi connection you can connect to, but the taxi is totally reliant on the mobile network.
But doesn't google pay etc. rely on an internet connection to work? So now your out in the sticks relying on two different internet connections.
No limit on Google pay payments. Tap phone and exit taxi, quicker than fumbling for change. No damage to any chip by tapping a card or phone.
Drinkers don't have issues paying for drinks at a bar with their card/phone so no reason for a taxi payment to be any different.
A lot of taxi drivers will resist this because their income will be known by Revenue.
Your opinion (i assume) of welcoming mandatory card acceptance is contra to my opinion. It would be nice if you fleshed out why you agree with bk that mandatory aceptance of cards is a good thing, rather than just venturing an opinion with no substance behind it.
Spook, you really need to shut up and just accept the fact that a non taxi driver knows way more about your industry and how it works than you, who's been in the trade for two decades now 🙄
I think the biggest cost to taxi drivers will be having to suddenly declare 99% of their income once this comes into effect. This is more than just the convenience to customers, the government know full well what is being earned and what is being declared and there is a significant gap.
Of course there are many fully compliant taxi drivers and those that don't earn that much. But there are many coining it in on cash jobs particularly at peak times.
I just dont see the need for the mandatory aspect with the threats of offering free fares and €200 fines if for whatever reason you can't take a payment.
How are you going to diffrentiate between the genuine problems (which do occur ) and the unscrupulous people who might damage the chip and then claim its your equipment at fault (again I have had this where a card was declined and i had to make a transaction using my debit card before the passenger would believe me that there was nothing wrong with my card reader and the fault was theirs)
I haven't even broached the problems caused by drinkers and trying to remember PINs if verification is required.
In short, mandatory is a step too far, if it's a problem then if asked and they say no I don't do cards then use someone like me who does. If drivers are losing fares they'll start taking cards voluntarily.
Electron and Maestro are prepaid debit cards, like gift cards, etc. Makes sense that they wouldn’t work without a connection, as you’d need to check first if they have an available balance.
The NTA could define it that only the standard Visa and Mastercards are accepted and would thus work with the offline function.
Another option is payment terminals with in built 4g, they cost more, but they use IoT sims that work across all phone networks. Extremely unlikely that you can’t find a connection in Dublin across three networks, 3G or 4g and across dozens of different frequencies!
The reason I’m being so hard line on this, is that you and I both know that given any out or excuse of any type, unscrupulous drivers will take advantage of it and say their machine isn’t working, etc.
There can be no out, the NTA need to be hardline on this, all drivers most accept card, if card machine not working for any reason, then free fare, simple as that. It most work, just like your taxi meter most work.
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