attic conversion not certified

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168445#Comment_119168445

belligerence is all you bring to the table , from listening to you , you would think it was necessary to burn the house down like you might throw a sheep in the skip of a meat factory if the farmers paperwork wasnt up to scratch , as my surveyor always says , " you can fix anything if you throw enough money at it " and besides I have no problem simply continuing to let it out if the buyer decides not to buy

maybe quit acting like you are privy to negotiations when you know nothing about it , the high handed all knowing tone is tedious

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162968#Comment_119162968

 chances are most surveyors (myself included) would deem it to be a habitable room and would note it as such in a report. 

This isn't how buying and selling a house works though.

It's up to the vendor to call it a habitable room or not. Unless it's advertised as such, the buyer's surveyor can't just walk in, declare it a habitable room and then demand it be brought up to code. If the seller had stuck a bed and a toilet in his 'storage room', then that's none of the buyer's business.

If the vendor calls it storage, then that's how it should be surveyed, regardless of any other factors.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169045#Comment_119169045

not only that , my surveyor has endorsed this , he has ruled out the attic as being for anything but storage , people enjoy inventing problems on threads and portraying them as stonewall obstacles to sales , if things were followed to the latter of the law in line with those posters views , no house would ever be sold in this country

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168715#Comment_119168715

If anyone adopts an all-knowing tone it is you. It is not your surveyor who will buy the house. Unlike you, potential buyers get their own surveyor, count the number of bedrooms and identify the problems. They don't accept assurances from the auctioneer selling the place. To find a buyer, you need some eejit like yourself or someone who is prepared to take the gamble and will want a hefty discount for doing so.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170255#Comment_119170255

You're the only eejit on this thread, making baseless presumptions left right and centre with absolute certainty ,you have no more insight into what this presumed buyer might do than the man in the moon ,you also baselessly conclude that the house is an irredeemable write off for anyone but a cash buyer

Manufacturing controversy based on technical details is You're contribution here, bully for you

chooseusername

deleted

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169045#Comment_119169045

The surveyor has to judge it based on the reality of the situation. If the room is most likely to be used as a habitable room, the surveyor has to say it is most likely to be used as a habitable room. They can't demand it be brought up to code, but their recommendation could mean the solicitors and bank don't permit the sale unless it's done. If the vendor decides not to do it, the sale might fall through.

Again, the bank will care about protecting their investment. If something happened (say a fire in the attic) and the insurance decides not to pay out as the attic was being used as a habitable room even though it doesn't comply, then the owner and bank will lose money.

Just because the owner says "I just use that for storage" doesn't negate that.

This is all general of course, as none of us bar the OP has been in the attic or knows the ins and outs. All we can do is talk generally.

And generally speaking, a surveyor is going to call a habitable room a habitable room in their report.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119171693#Comment_119171693

None of this makes sense because you're confusing the valuation and the survey.

The bank never sees the buyer's survey and the valuation is not carried out by a surveyor, so the bank neither knows nor cares about habitable room compliance.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172712#Comment_119172712

It can depend on the property. The bank may request a surveyor's report as a condition of the mortgage. I've had situations where the bank didn't request or care about the surveyors report, and I've had some where it was specifically requested either due to the age of the property or due to extensions/alterations to the property (though even then they may just look for certification for the works rather than a survey report).

I'm not confusing it with a valuation survey.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172939#Comment_119172939

No but you are making an arbitrary interpretation

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173010#Comment_119173010

I've never been in your attic so how would I do anything other than that?

I'm judging it based on the information provided, experience of similar situations, and what I would do as a chartered building surveyor. Going on the information provided, I would flag it in a survey report as a habitable room or room likely to be used as such, I would note any non-compliance issues found, and I would submit the report. Whatever happens after that regarding the buyer, solicitors and banks is their issue.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172712#Comment_119172712

The bank carry out their own valuation and the banks valuer will report any issue affecting the valuation and the bank will make enquiries. Secondly the solicitor will be asked about modifications regarding planning permission in the requisitions on title. The velux and the stairs will have to be disclosed and explained. The buyers solicitor will have to qualify the title for the buyers bank and it will be a matter for the bank whther to accept the situation or not.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170659#Comment_119170659

I am not one who bought a non planning compliant property and didn't count the bedrooms. I am not trying to pull the wool over the eyes of buyers. I am not the one letting out a death trap house. I am not the one blaming everyone else for my mistakes and trying to convince people black is white or white is black depending on how money is to be made.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173425#Comment_119173425

You're a controversy creating social media jester

tscul32

Found this on an attic conversion company website

>>

99.9% of attic conversions are classed as ‘storage’ rooms because the roofs are not high enough.

If you want to be able to call your new attic room a bedroom 50% of the floor area needs to be 2.4 mtrs high (just under 8 feet) in order to qualify.

If your roof is a little over 8 feet high you could achieve habitable status by adding a large, flat roof dormer to the back.

<<

So assuming this is correct, how can adding a dormer make the room no longer a death trap?

If your ceiling height only allows 49% of the floor area to be 2.4m, why is it suddenly a death trap? Is it not possible to do all the fireproofing of ceilings below and add relevant fire doors, etc. when only 49% of the floor area has a ceiling height of 2.4m?

I know nothing about the building regulations required for any of this but am following this thread out of interest. Many homes have attic conversions that are declared on planning permission as for storage purposes only and planning is granted on that basis. So they are compliant with planning. If they are also built to an appropriate engineering spec and comply with building regulations for a storage room, then what are they non compliant with. If they use it as a bedroom then their use is non compliant, that bit I understand, but how is the house non compliant, what is it that the building does not comply with?

If I wanted to buy a 3 bed house for family with 2 kids and saw the op's one, assuming it was within budget, I'd love it. My current attic is a pain to access, so a storage room with a staircase would be great. I wouldn't have any need of an extra bedroom. But the suggestion is that I'd be buying a death trap and that my solicitor wouldn't advise it and my bank wouldn't give me the mortgage for it. Why? Because they believe I would use it as a bedroom, even though I wouldn't? For the record my brother converted his attic into storage and uses it for storage.

Just trying to understand the issues...

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119174645#Comment_119174645

CH does love his hyperbole shtick

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119174645#Comment_119174645

Many people convert their attics to use as a bedroom, office, playroom etc, even though it doesn't comply with building regulations. This is because the cost of the works involved to make it compliant normally make the conversion non-viable. There tends to be numerous compliance issues, including (but not limited to):

• Planning Permission (eg. trying to comply with head-height requirements often requires installation of a dormer on the rear roof slope which would require planning permission and may not be granted, so many don't construct the dormer at all)
• TGD Part A: Structure - Works will likely require modifications to existing roof structure, as well as the ceiling structure to allow new stairs up
• TGD Part B: Fire - If a habitable room is located on a floor more than 4.5m above ground level, the stairwell and halls leading to final exit needs to be fire protected. If the room is used as a bedroom, escape windows are required (velux rooflights need to be within specific heights, distances from eaves etc)
• TGD Part F: Ventilation - Suitable head-height over habitable floor area for ventilation. This is why a dormer on the roof is often constructed, it increases the amount of floor space with a suitable head-height.
• TGD Part K: Stairs - New stairs up have to have compliant risers, goings, pitches, distances from doors etc
• TGD Part M: Disabled Access - Primarily minimum head-height of 2m over existing stairs (meaning if the new stairs from first floor to attic are over the existing stairs, there must be 2m head-height over the existing stairs)

Which leads to the most common issue; the cost and impact of works required to comply with all of that is substantial, and the works simply might not always comply regardless due to existing heights of the roof, existing first floor layout etc. So it's common to carry out the non-compliant works and have it certified as being for storage purposes only. However, the truth is that even carrying out the works in a non-compliant way is still expensive and extremely disruptive, to the point where the majority of people would not carry out the works just to provide (what is supposed to be) rarely used/accessed storage space.

I've done numerous attic conversions which were certified as being for storage purposes only, while also outlining to the clients that the use of such space as habitable is non-compliant for (listed reasons). However, if that's what they want to do with their house, that's their business. But I've also done numerous building surveys for buyers where the attic has been converted and is being sold as storage space only, but I would have outlined in the report that the space is likely to be used as habitable space for (items/evidence noted during survey) and is non-compliant for same and stated that certification should be requested/provided for the works. Again, after that it's in the hands of the buyer/solicitor/mortgage provider.

tscul32

Totally understand most of your reply. I get that (and why) people use "storage" as a workaround.

Your last couple of lines -likely to be used as a habitable space - is still very subjective, just because current owner does that doesn't mean new owner will. If current owner had a mattress in the kitchen, doesn't mean the new owner will.

You said "certification should be provided for the works" - what certification do you mean? Planning, building regs, certification that it is a habitable room, even though none is actually claiming it is. I'm genuinely confused as to what certification you mean.

We all know that anyone who has an attic converted for storage is more than likely going to use it for habitable space but I would have thought that more than a suspicion would be required to disrupt a sale.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119175094#Comment_119175094

You wouldn't be able to definitively state its being used as a habitable room, but things like number of electrical sockets, phone/TV socket, finishes, even in the case of the OP where there's an en-suite in the attic. One small velux rooflight would make sense for storage space to provide a bit of natural daylight. More than one would signify a clear intent to provide comfortable levels of daylight for prolonged use.

These are all signs that the room is intended to be used as habitable space. Not definitive, but likewise a surveyor would be careful enough in their wording to ensure there are reasonable caveats in what they say and that their assumption is based on the aforementioned items noted.

Regards certification, any significant works which affect planning permission, building regulations or structure should be certified to ensure the works carried out comply with same, usually that the works were designed, overseen and inspected by a suitable professional (architect, engineer or building surveyor).

tscul32

Ok, so the vendor could have all the certification done for planning, regulations, etc. for a storage area. It would be up to a buyer's solicitor to ensure these were in place and if a home was being sold with a storage room with all appropriate certs for that "storage" room, then you wouldn't see a problem?

L1011

I'm closing this thread as certain users seem incapable of being basically respectful on it.