attic conversion not certified

Wildly Boaring

You have a funny attitude to this surveyor.

Zealot, orthodox, etc.

He's asked to survey a building. It's got non-compliant rooms and no cert of compliance. He's put it in his report. It's up to the purchaser to direct his solicitor to ignore or that he will accept a cert of compliance as a store room.

The surveyor isn't the one who has to take a risk or ignore the elephant in the room. That's for the purchaser to do.

awec

..

seamus

Arguably it is a "bureaucratic pantomime", but more because people are taking the piss than anything else. Lots of houses being sold with "attic upgrades" that are clearly being used as living space but classed as storage space. Which is why surveyors have to draw a line somewhere. In reality any attic space with fixed access, floors, walls and a ceiling should be classed as habitable space and subject to the regs. Would make cases like the OP's much cleaner and clearer.

There's not really any argument here anyway - the space is being used for living in. It's not storage space, so the OP is not being hard done by. The space should either be brought up to compliance, or downgraded to storage space.

The regs aren't there for the craic. Some - like ceiling height - are not essential, but fire safety upgrades are.

brokenangel

I had converted a garage in my last house, when I sold it the surveyor raised it as a concern

It cost I think 500 euro to get engineers report done and certified. Is that changed now or why would it delay for 6 months?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105467#Comment_119105467

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119104925#Comment_119104925

they arent there for the craic but like a lot of things here , there is a severe lack of consistency , the authorities do not enforce the regs as the dogs in the street know that people throw beds into uncertified attic " storage rooms " and allow family and guests to sleep there

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105495#Comment_119105495

The OP seems to want it physically converted to habitable room status and certified as such.

As you say, if it's just a question of calling it a storage area and getting an engineer to check if the roof won't cave in, then it's an easy and cheap win.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105596#Comment_119105596

If I am reading this correctly the room has an ensuite, how can you say its a storage area?

The people buying the house are right to be concerned and they should make you provide all the information. Otherwise if they decide to sell in a few years they will be left trying to fix the problem. The regulations are not going to disappear, in fact they will probably tighten them up more.

The surveyor is 100% right to call this out so not sure why you are complaining about them.

Before even selling the house you should have made sure everything was ready to go, to me it seems like you hoped nobody would notice, you would sell and then it was someone elses problem.

The banks are right to tighten up on this type of thing, people taking out huge mortgage and then issues like this arise and they haven't the money to fix. Then end up in arrears.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105596#Comment_119105596

You need to be clear about how you advertised this room when selling the house.

If you called it a bedroom (and priced the house accordingly) then you must get it certified.

If you called it a storage space, then it is utterly irrelevant to the purchaser what you were using it for. Literally none of their business and tell them that.

I bought a house last year with a "storage room" in the attic. Velux windows, electricity and a bed in said storage room. My surveyor just said he had inspected on the basis that it's a storage room, I said grand, and I now also have a bed and my office in there.

So unless you told them it was a bedroom, I don't see an issue. My guess is they're fishing for ways to bargain the price down.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119104817#Comment_119104817

The bank care about the quality of their security. Therfe is valuation and marketability. Selling a house which is non compliant with planning permission and building regulations is less straightforward than selling a house which is compliant. The house cannot be sold without the attic. You can't cure a problem be description. You bought the house as a 4 bed without checking and now think some eejit will appear and buy it as a three bed without checking. Dream on.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106280#Comment_119106280

who said i bought it as a four bed ?

i did no such thing and my surveyor advised me before purchasing it a few years back that planning was for a three bed , planning is not required for an attic conversion provided you dont use it for anything other than storage

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105661#Comment_119105661

not exactly , I said Im willing if it comes to it to regularise it and effectively promote it to a bone fide four bed , if i can get away with spending very little in order to get the sale through as a three bed , that is my preferred option right now , my question was more about the technicalities here

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105852#Comment_119105852

the buyers can regularise the attic themselves down the line and add value to their house by upgrading their three bed to a four bed , if they decide not to buy now based on the surveyors findings ? , they will not get the house or at least need to pay forty grand more in six months or a year for a four bed

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105928#Comment_119105928

this sale was negotiated in private , it did not get advertised on the open market because my tenants are attempting to buy the house belonging to the couple trying to buy my house , my tenants do not have the budget for my house , they want to stay local , i am fond of them and im trying to play my part in a solution which can deliver for everyone , the people trying to buy my house took their house off the market and agreed to a lower price than they were getting on the open market in order to facilitate this three way deal

my house was sold as a three bed with an uncertified attic space , the auctioneer who brokered this whole deal claims to have sold many houses in the locality with exactly the same details and this EA is not some gombeen spud muncher , he is a very well educated man

backwards_man

I sold a house about 8 years ago where there was no engineers cert for the attic conversion (which I didnt do, it was there when we bought it). Two buyers pulled out due to no report. The concern was around building regulations (the thickness of floor joists and whether or not a steel reenforcing beam should have been used?. from memory) . Got a builder in to look at it, he said it would not have done steel beam or thicker joists if he was doing his own house. A structural engiiner said in order for him to certify it, he would want steel beam and thicker joists. This attic conversion had been in use for 20+yrs with no issues, and was used by us as a spare bedroom although it didnt meet regulations for that. In the end we paid 7K to have it redone to spec and got it certified, but were able to claim part back with the grant that was in place around 2015 for home improvements. We sold the house for 35k more subsequently due to the market moving upwards in the interim, so it worked out well.

Treppen

I get the sense this is all being confounded by attempts to do a three-way sale/purchase.

If your buyer really wanted to get their act together and purchase your house they'd be saying that it'll be used for storage. They could have this solved very quickly by engaging with another surveyor to get it across the line.

I would just make it their problem or else put it back on market, no shortage of buyers out there.

Trying to suit an arrangement with only one prospective buyer is heading for a headache.

If it's the ensuite that's the issue then just board it off, or stick a wardrobe in front of the door.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106371#Comment_119106371

my house was sold as a three bed with an uncertified attic space

Then I honestly don't see the issue. I would say 95% of houses that go on the market with a bed in the attic are the same.

If the buyers want to convert it to habitable space, let them. There is no way for you to 'regularise' this without spending a lot of money.

You need an engineer to come out, look at the structure and give an opinion that the house remains compliant with building regs in the context of the attic being storage space. A couple of hours work, 500 euro I would say.

If the buyers still don't like it, then the deal is off.

seamus

Got a builder in to look at it, he said it would not have done steel beam or thicker joists if he was doing his own house. A structural engiiner said in order for him to certify it, he would want steel beam and thicker joists.

The engineer's advice impacts his livelihood. If he tells you to fire ahead on the existing joists and five years later the house has significant structural damage because you decided a cast-iron bath would be a good idea up there, then he's in trouble. Even if you tell him that you only want to use it as a playroom, your word is no use to his insurance company.

The builder knows that he's just going to stick a bed up there and a few bits and not overload the ceiling joists. If he sells the house and the next guy decides to stick 1000kg of gym equipment up there, there's no comeback on the builder.

The purpose of the regulations really is safety; to ensure that changes made to a house don't put any of the occupants at risk through the entire lifetime of it. The guy who first builds it may know exactly what's been done and what the limits are, but the next guy to buy it, doesn't. If it meets regulations, then nobody needs to know how the work was done, just that it's up to spec.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106354#Comment_119106354

But if any issues then they are left with a huge cost to upgrade to allow them to resell the house.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107102#Comment_119107102

What huge cost?, they can return it to a storage area for little cost, if they upgrade to four bed by certifying attic, they add value to the house

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107129#Comment_119107129

A bathroom is up in the area. It will cause problems if trying to sell

JimmyVik

Seen this many times. Even seen it with large sheds.

The solicitors will work it out easily as long as everybody understands what they are buying and selling.

Sometimes you just need to get a less anal surveyor involved.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107179#Comment_119107179

Pull it out then ,that isn't costly

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107179#Comment_119107179

In what sense? You don't need planning permission to put in a bathroom, so unless they altered the structural fabric of the house then it's a non-issue. It's still just a storage area, except with a jacks in it.

Calahonda52

Does it comply with Fire regs?

Claw Hammer

You started a thread stating that you bought it as a 4 bed here some years ago. ou were crying about the contract you signed. You also refused to say that you had a survey done.

Who do you think you are fooling?

Ray Palmer

Whomever thinks once you put a bathroom somewhere it changes everything is wrong. It is all about how you use. If nobody sleeps there it isn't being used as a habitable space. You can even store a bed in the space. Use determines all. The cost of making this attic a bedroom will be more than 7k. Very unlikely the floor has been fire proofed which effectively means tearing everything up. Then the enclosing of stairs and fire doors is big work.

The surveyor is way off here. Just hire a surveyor to check the roof structure and say it is storage that is it. I have bought 4 such converted houses and no issue as it isn't legally a bedroom no matter how the sellers used it. Seems like they buyers are trying to get a discount to me

raxy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119110984#Comment_119110984

Maybe I'm missing something here but the op never stated it was bought as a 4 bed. He bought it at auction. He is selling it as a 3 bed.

What's with people attacking people on here? Seems to be a very common trend on posts, not just this 1.

Seems like he is going out of his way to help his tenants out & taking a reduced sale price so is out of pocket himself as a result. He's just asking for advice on how to rectify the survey issue!

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111162#Comment_119111162

That's Claws MO

I'm not out of pocket, I'm making an excellent profit, nevermind the rent received, the tenants can only afford one house locally and fortunately the sellers of said house wish to buy my house, sellers sacraficed 5k ,I don't know what I'm sacrificing as I didn't put on open market, ive a 97k gain in two years though excluding rent

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119110984#Comment_119110984

No I didn't you boorish yob

Bio Mech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096388#Comment_119096388

Agree with all that. Thats how it played out for me exactly. Needed an engineers cert to state that the conversion was exempt from planning permission and was in line with building regs. Sent the cert to the buyers surveyor and problem solved. We didnt have an ensuite but there was a bed and desk in the room at time of survey. Cost €400 (5 years ago) for the certification.