The employment crisis in the hospitality sector.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099238#Comment_119099238

And up the price of staff and those prices go up again.

I just read a piece about a restaurant in Kerry closing after 5 years.

Gas prices up 39%, other energy prices up 25%

They increased their prices by 12.5% to try and offset it, but that did not work and they can't up them by another 12.5%

So where is the scope in all of that to pay staff more.

It's just not there.

But according to some here they should increase the wages to get staff because you know, they are making money hand over fist.

https://extra.ie/2022/05/19/news/the-thatch-restaurant-kerry

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119098964#Comment_119098964

So you want southern European prices ?

Pay southern European wages.

screamer

Truth be told the hospitality industry in Ireland is well over supplied in terms of establishments. They are not and will not all be viable. As they close more staff will be one available to the ones left standing. wages need to go up, no one wants to work long hours and often unsociable hours for minimum wage. So, get used to paying more guys.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099386#Comment_119099386

Some restaurants are not viable - tough but true. Staff shouldn't have to work long hours for very little pay just to keep the business going for the owners. If you can't afford to treat the staff well then close the doors for good.

maestroamado

Hospitality is another word for money in Ireland... how much can we get out of them... Ireland only welcoms wealthy people... the rest of us fly Ryanair...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099386#Comment_119099386

If you want a glib answer you can have one, I would like to open a business where I sell seashells from a little prefab on a beach. Doesn't mean I get to do it.

Just because the way things are the way they are doesn't mean they're right by default. There's no reason to have our economy set up in such a way that treating staff like **** is the only way to allow a sector to "thrive" is to have the staff treated and paid like ****. Hell even takeaway food. The market is crowded as it is despite **** work conditions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099455#Comment_119099455

Surprisingly when running costs increase and the price of goods and services go up, people forget about low staff wages and complain about what they have to pay for goods and services. We want low prices and high wages, the two don’t usually go together.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099422#Comment_119099422

But increasing staff pay as many here are advocating is not going to make them anymore viable.

On the contrary it would push viable businesses into non viable territory.

People on boards have a very naive view of things.

Rent is expensive ergo landlords are loaded.

Hospitality is expensive ergo the owners are making huge money.

It ain't that simple.

Flinty997

Time will tell how viable they are.

The staff have voted with their feet.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099549#Comment_119099549

Look I do I understand more than most.- I am an accountant and my husband used to be a chef so I see it from both sides. If a business is not able to pay its staff a decent wage and still make a profit then they need to close. Making slaves of staff ( which many owners do) in order to make a profit is disgusting behaviour. I done the accounts of several restaurants over the years - the common thing with alot of owners is that they never make cuts to their own lifestyle!

maestroamado

Out of interest how often do we see backpackers in Ireland... are all the oige hostels closed...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099632#Comment_119099632

An accountant who thinks that clients should increase outgoings and make less profit, your clients must be concerned.

Flinty997

I think the point is the business is hanging on a thread, the thread is staff with no reason to turn up if they get any excuse not to.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099211#Comment_119099211

Its gonna be fun when all these so-called tech hubs cant find cleaners for their shiny offices because of sh1te wages and the fact they cant afford to live there.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099672#Comment_119099672

I didn't say they should increase their costs - I said they should close their doors for good because they are not viable.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099238#Comment_119099238

holy sh1t, 100 euros to sleep in a dormitory room with 31 other people, thats insane. Im staying in Paris for the Champions League final next weekend and a 4 bed dormitory is 40 euros a night

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099009#Comment_119099009

whatever about prices ( and i actually think if you shop around its not that bad ) , quality is excellent for the most part , way above most nations on average

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099009#Comment_119099009

You need to go to Iceland. You'd only get the bowl of soup for that

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099009#Comment_119099009

This, see what you will pay in temple bar for a pint and food then ask what the young person that serves you is paid, around minimum wage.

a spot I like out by the Phoenix park gone mental price wise … a pub, not a restaurant in the pub, the pub itself.

looking on their website the menu is without prices which is indicative of their mindset… “get them in before they know how dear”.

Pussyhands

People always say just pay people more and then they'll get workers. It's not that easy. Do people think businesses are raking it in?

There's a worker shortage everywhere in the economy.

Try getting an electrician or a plumber for a job on your house. I wonder how many of the people saying "just pay more" take the same approach to electricians and builders for their own houses.

Pussyhands

Another thing us Irish focus too much on is looking for more money rather than a reduction in living costs. When someone gets more wages it makes them feel better and more important but I'd 100% prefer lower living costs than any wage increase.

Geuze

I have a degree of sympathy for the hospitality sector, however I would like more answers.

How come a 3-course early-bird menu is 39.95 in Sligo, yet in central Paris a 3-course meal in a (tightly-packed) cafe-restaurant is under 20 euro?

(e.g. Bar l'Express, rue du Rouge)

https://www.ealabhan.ie/early-bird/

In Chartier Paris, steak and chips is 11.40. Now costs are not low in Paris, their PRSI is much higher than here, their VAT is 10%, and the min wage is 10.85.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100321#Comment_119100321

Electrician or plumbers we are short of… chronically short of trades people is why…

general workers we are far from short of. Hospitality would be general workers.

hayse

The pup did wreck

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099521#Comment_119099521

We have the Restaurants Association warning for years about the impact of increasing the minumum wage and what it might do to the industry. Every time the Budget comes around they say increases need to the minimum wage need to be minimised.

In fact, here's a doozy from their pre-Budget Submission in 2017.

"For most restaurants, labour costs account for close to 40% of total operating costs. Hence the sector is very sensitive to increases in the minimum wage, not least because such increases tend to feed into wages of the majority of staff who earn above the minimum wage."

I mean the absolute state of that, and that was when the government raised the minimum wage from €9.15 an hour to €9.25.

Now, the minimum wage has never been higher (€10.50)...and they can't get any staff.

They're greedy bastards. That's all it is.

Those peddling the 'well if you increase wages then expect to pay higher prices' nonsense, instead of actually making excuses for greedy bastards why don't you challenge the sector on it? Ask them what their profits were last year instead of worrying about a small dent in their costs.

Staff have rightly voted with their feet and now the sector is scrambling to continue cheap labour to maximise their greed in the short-term instead of actually seeing the long-term investment in getting good, high-quality staff who will want to stay working for them and their customers.

Strumms

i don’t believe that 40% figure it’s impossible to quantify over a whole industry and be that specific.

my local is an absolute goldmine, from food to drinks and functions in addition to regular trade…

7 of us on a Sunday night, drinking conservatively 5 pints each…175 euro from that corner / table in two hours in revenue…

replicated x 10 approximately in the bar alone….

Sorry, they can easily afford to pay proper wages but historically they have not, why start.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100373#Comment_119100373

The head of the Restaurants Association of Ireland is pretty explicit: He doesn't care a jot for the low-paid in the sector; constantly beats the drum for loosened immigration for dish washers and waiters from any country in the world without thought of how they'll be housed or make ends meet; dead opposed to minimum wage rises of the most modest kind etc etc.

His latest contribution on Twitter amounts to whipping those on the live register about the feet into the sector. Never mind the fact we are at technical full employment, and the people on the register consist for the most part of:

A. Those who are part of the natural churn of employment and will be back at work in their own sector of choice before long (and sure as hell won't be the hospitality industry with its conditions)

and

B: the very long term unemployed, who are a lot smaller in number than his Thatcherite brain wants to conceed, and often have other issues going on (mental health or substance related).

He's an extremely bad look for the sector, and as a lobbyist, a dunderhead.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100321#Comment_119100321

People are saying treat them better. Not simply pay them more...

https://www.thejournal.ie/alfies-5-cent-coins-legal-expert-5550918-Sep2021/

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100407#Comment_119100407

Same with mine on the weekends, but in fairness the owner of my local is happy to get his hands dirty himself, as is his wife, and they look after the two staff members he gets in to help him out.

During the week he'd only have a handful in every night, but Friday, Saturday and Sunday he'd be out the door.

People keep coming back, including the two staff members who have been there for years. Wonder why?

riclad

Maybe there's other jobs avaidable in other sectors, I think in the USA its the same, eg many cafes are short of workers, they raised wages and health benefits in order to attract workers . I thought employers had to provide employees with payslips and pay prsi etc every week. so how are people working and they are not registered with tax office as employed at job x

I don't think highly qualified electricians bricklayers are just signing on the dole I think wages in the building industry are good you work 9 to 5 employers don't treat you like crap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100373#Comment_119100373

Eh, prices have gone up, and lots have gone out of business, so I guess they were right. You don’t have to be an economist to understand that any part of your business which constitutes 40% of costs will have a significant impact if it were to rise. There are plenty of threads on boards about the price of drink and food charged in Ireland, surely someone as intelligent as yourself can understand that with the well publicised rises in electricity, gas, rents, insurance, foods, profits may not be there.

If businesses can afford to increase wages, of course they should, but this notion that bars restaurants hotels etc make huge profits because they are busy is nonsense. Trading conditions for all businesses are different now compared to 2019, none more so than in the hospitality sector where trading conditions have deteriorated significantly.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100407#Comment_119100407

7 of us on a Sunday night, drinking conservatively 5 pints each…175 euro from that corner / table in two hours in revenue…

This is a typical example of what I mentioned earlier about posters here being naive when it comes to things like the price of food and drink.

Did it even cross your mind what the 35 pints from that corner/table in two hours and the serving of them and the facilitating that corner/table for two hours cost the owner ?

Deeec

My husband was a chef - he had to get out of the industry for his health and so he could actually have a life. It was the best decision he ever made to get out.

- he was paid a salary for a 40 hour but actually had to work 60 + hours every week. So his actual rate per hour was under minimum wage.

- in one job he never was allowed a Sunday off and was never allowed take a full weeks holidays!

- breaks were none existent at weekends. He would frequently work 12 hour days without having any break because they were so busy.

- if the kitchen porter didn't show up or was on holidays the chef's would also have to clean and wash up as well as prep and cook. The extra hours here of course were unpaid.

- he frequently would have to do 7 day weeks due to staff shortages. He wouldn't get paid any extra for this or even a thank you. He would be promised days off in lieu of extra days worked which of course he was never allowed to take.

- he won awards for the restaurant which resulted in lots of publicity for the business which made it really busy. Literally never even got a thank you from the owners

When we had our first child he never got to see her. We literally could not plan anything - days off were always ruined by phone calls saying we need you to come in . It was at this point we decided things needed to change. He left and it was the best decision he ever made. We now have a normal happy life.

The items I have mentioned above are normal of alot of hotels and restaurants. The industry needs to realise they need to treat staff with respect - it doesn't necessarily mean extra wages. Fixing the above problems would help the industries staffing problems. They need to realise that their staff are actual people that need to also have a life.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100702#Comment_119100702

That corner table has pretty well paid for a staff member for the night... i was talking to a publican a couple of weeks ago and he told me they pay €80 cash from about 6pm to 1am...

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100730#Comment_119100730

I ain't one to stand up for employers in hospitality but that's just nonsense.

Bills most business have to pay:

Rent/mortgage, rates, electricity, water, insurance (a few types) wages, raw materials (or product), professional fees, IRMA fees, entertainment related fees, marketing, direct labour etc etc and then have to turn a wage for the owner off what is left.

There's probably more am forgetting.

Murph85

Another poster mentioned, what I have stated doing. Ditch holidays here and have them abroad. Obviously you need some flexibility. I was away about one week ago. Return flights to Spain were available for thirty euro from Dublin, depart Thursday and back Monday. Majorca was hundred euro return. Four day automatic car hire was hundred euro. The local pub in my suburb in Dublin, is charging seven euro a pint of Heineken. Game over. I barely ever go out here any more. Appalling value for money, I feel like a mug for being a part of it..

I also have no idea, why you would work for Free. People saying they worked sixty hours and got paid for forty. They are actually part of the problem. Employers wont change, if people tolerate the likes of that BS!

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100758#Comment_119100758

There is huge profit in drink.. thats all i am saying... i do agree its over regulated...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100769#Comment_119100769

There you have it in a nutshell.

Poster gives out about the cost of a pint, and wants the cost of providing the pint to rise.

Murph, it may come as a shock that wages are considerably lower in Spain, and I suspect other costs are also lower.

https://wageindicator.org/salary/minimum-wage/minimum-wages-news/minimum-wage-increased-in-spain-march-4-2022

So look, if you want Spanish prices, don’t be hypocritical, consider what your counterpart in Spain is paid.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100415#Comment_119100415

yeah and the idiot was on Twitter calling for a 'national conversation' but then he goes and restricts who can reply to his tweet, really says it all about what you're dealing with.

I believe the latest from them is in the background they are lobbying the government furiously to rip up the work permit system so they can import more low wage chefs and kitchen porters from India and Pakistan. So they've admitted to themselves that they cannot recruit from the 450 million pool of EU labour and now want to race further to the bottom by bringing in even cheaper labour to exploit.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100617#Comment_119100617

A small pub i used go to years ago had its last insurance quote of e38k for the year. It had one legit claim n it was paid out n one spoofers claim still in the pipeline. The owners packed it in n now flog coffee out the front Thursday-Sunday out through a hatch.

The owner was saying his insurance was 38k n sky TV 12k a year so it was 1000 a week for something that was negligible when he started out 20 years ago.

I reckon a lot of staffing shortages will be gone by the end of the year as rising bills eat into disposable income.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100794#Comment_119100794

Labour can’t be cheaper than minimum wage, there are a few reasons other than pay rate why Europeans are not moving as much as they did prior to March 2020, turn on the news.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100779#Comment_119100779

What do you define as "profit"?

• The closure of literally hundreds of pubs over the last few years (and prior to covid) would suggest that the "huge profit" isn't really all that.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100769#Comment_119100769

There was a time employees tolerated working for free, it's the very fact they are no longer willing to tolerate it amongst many other ghastly practices in the sector that has said sector in such Trouble.

For far too long, the Hospitality sector, essentially operated on basis of cheap labour, cutting corners and treating people appallingly. As someone who worked professionally in this sector for 30 year's I'm not a bit surprised droves have left and will never return.

I even spent time Teaching the profession (Culinary Arts) and who at one time was proud to encourage and mentor students in the industry in what was once an honorable and rewarding profession, something changed over the past 20 years and gradually all I experienced was unhappiness, negativity, people being abused, shocking working conditions and pay, I eventually gave up encouraging anyone to get into the sector.

SnuggyBear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100769#Comment_119100769

Exactly. People shouldn't put up with that crap and know their worth. If they don't treat you well leave and set your conditions in your new job.

I'm paid well, never work over 40 hour and get the same days off every week which I set. The industry will take the piss if you let them.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100830#Comment_119100830

Most publicians that left the trade are wealthy if they did not het involved in celtic tiger investments... they got conned by the suppliers as a publican is paying considerably more per litre for draught than the supermarkets... the ones that are left are struggling as a bottle of beer in a supermarket for about a €1 is €5+ in most pubs... it cannot work...

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101003#Comment_119101003

So what do you define as profit then?

Again, if there was that much profit in drink you'd expect every Tom, Dick and Harry to be opening bars - it's literally the exact opposite.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101123#Comment_119101123

What i am saying is pubs priced themselves out of the market... i expect they cannot compete with supermarkets etc for staff...

Excellent thread revealing the reality. Remember that the hospitality industry is heavily subsidised through public funding of tourist infrastructure not to mention influencing Covid policy the less tolerance there should be for its self serving incompetence.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101253#Comment_119101253

Yep. They all went very quiet during January 2021 and were out making demands again once the numbers settled down.

Horrible industry.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100996#Comment_119100996

So the answer to poor wages and conditions in the Irish hospitality industry is to take your holiday in a country where the wages are less.

That'll teach those pesk owners.