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Domestic Rates for Microgeneration Exports

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  • 16-05-2022 12:25pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭


    I wanted to start a discussion on the rates offered by the Irish electricity suppliers for those exporting to the grid using micro generators (Solar PV, wind turbines etc.)

    I know at this point there aren't many (if any) domestic rates being quoted, but my guess is this is because the rate suppliers HAVE to give has been set at zero! It suggests to me that no-one wants to start the ball rolling, waiting to see what the others offer first. Eventually somebody has to be first!

    Rates have to be paid starting "after June 22" backdated to January, so very soon now, these companies have to give us a price.

    As you see the prices, please add them here (checking that the supplier hasn't already been added to avoid multiple pointless posts!)

    As suppliers have no minimum value, it should be interesting to see if this rule is good, or bad for the customer.

    PLEASE; NO COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT BEYOND PRICES THE SUPPLIER'S OFFER, thanks.



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭Bakka




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,947 ✭✭✭circadian


    Ayw but their daytime unit is 25.71 and after 5pm it is 36.73 so unless you're generating and storing a significant amount of electricity then this may not be th best deal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭Bakka


    Totally agree. I'm with Electric Ireland. I'm waiting eagerly for their FIT, as I feel as they are the major player in Ireland for energy. A lot of companies might be waiting for them to make their pitch first.



  • Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭niallers1


    is the FIT being paid by ESB Networks but just administered by the electricity supplier?

    Should it be the same rate for everybody

    https://www.independent.ie/news/environment/over-21000-customers-to-be-paid-by-esb-for-their-solar-power-energy-41629327.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭BoxerX


    Further down the article, you will see "The amount paid is decided by individual electricity suppliers. Pinergy was one of the first to declare its offering at 13.5 cent per kilowatt hour (kwh)." (Poor headlining by the Indy).

    The government has put a minimum rate on the CEG of zero, the idea being it should create competition, but its more likely tariffs will simply be adjusted up to compensate for a higher FIT, and vice versa.

    In my opinion, the amount paid should have been set at (eg) 1c below the rate being charged to supply at that particular time. That would have helped negate the need for battery storage (and its consequential need for replacing and recycling down the road), after all, it costs nothing to distribute the power WE produce for the grid.

    Still, I suppose we should be grateful we're finally getting something back for the power we're feeding in to the grid!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭kuang1


    Exactly right. I took a gamble when I got my pv panels done and skipped getting a battery in the hope that the FIT would match the commercial rate at least.

    Now that that idea is phecked, I'll be forking out €5,000 or so for 2 x 5.1kw batteries shortly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,889 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    having seen the smart meter tariffs being offered by the suppliers, I'd be surprised if any of them are the best deal. And I assume if you don't go for a smart meter, your FIT will be zero? (I have a smart meter, but I'm still on a standard 24H rate).



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,113 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    €5k! 😵‍💫

    What payback are you expecting???!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,113 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    It’s actually the other way around! 🙂

    ESB tell the providers how many kWh’s you’ve exported and your provider processes that figure into your bill… they can give you anything they like for it… all the way down to nadda!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭kuang1


    When I get driving my EV, the whole system will take between 8 and 9 years to pay for itself.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭BoxerX


    Frustrating! Still, by my reckoning, I will use most of my own generated power to heat my immersion and on powering the house, if there's any left over I will kick on the dishwasher and washing machine. I can't see ESB getting much out of me unless I'm away on holiday!



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,113 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Unless you have a really unusual usage profile it will be very difficult to see reasonable payback on the batteries at that price.

    Do you have a massive array?

    Do you use alot of daytime electricity already?


    Adding an EV will help but that's only saving you night rate, not day rate.

    Lets say you cycle the 10kWh battery 150 times a year... thats probably even optimistic, but open to correction.... and lets say your day rate is 20c/kWh. That saves you €300/yr so thats 15+yrs for payback on the batteries... to break even!, no money saved at that point.

    I'd be interested in seeing your payback figures.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,002 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    My 2021 numbers give me about 400 euro a year saving for my original battery system, (10kwh, 3 kw sofar me3000) capturing excess solar and night rate charging over the winter.

    I do have 8.6 kwp of solar, so when March/April hits, I'm not doing much night rate charging.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭kuang1


    Yeah my usage wouldn't be typical I suppose.

    And I said that 8/9 years is my payback time for my whole system, not just the batteries.

    System will have set me back (including batteries) (net) €13,100.


    BER of my house is A1.

    Air to water heating system so everything powered by electricity. Average about 8,500 kWh annually, and that's without an EV as of yet.

    Aiming to save minimum of €1000 a year on the house's portion of the electricity bill.

    And just using the general consensus that the cost of powering an EV is about 15% the cost of fueling an ICE vehicle, I'll save minimum €1500 on diesel.

    All of this I'm offsetting somewhat with likely further increases in cost of electricity.

    So you can see my estimate of 8/9 years is actually conservative 😊



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,113 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    I don’t really understand why you are including the €1500 diesel cost. The €5k battery cost won’t be helping much there. You will save on diesel regardless of having batteries by using night rate.


    You are, in my opinion, being very optimistic on your payback for the €5k and I know you are saying it’s for the whole system but your existing system is a sunk cost, you need to look at the additional new €5k cost and see if that stands on its own two feet as you haven’t bought any batteries yet. I doubt it will pay at that price.



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,260 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Your system cost you €13k incl. batteries and you hope to save €1k per year (optimistic - have you a breakdown of that?) which gives you a 13 year payback, not 8-9 years or am I missing something?

    That's a lot of money to spend on a relatively small battery. I would either just get one battery if you really want one. Or DIY a 10kWh battery for about €1500. Presuming your inverter already is a hybrid inverter. If you don't you will either have to replace your current inverter with a hybrid inverter (expensive) or get a dedicated battery inverter



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭kuang1


    My installer expects me to save €1400 a year on electricity, I'm rounding that down as I think he's too optimistic with that.

    As for including the diesel cost to offset the system... Eh don't really know how to respond to that. Without pv system I'm charging car from the grid.

    Without battery I'm unable to use any solar generated power to charge the car unless I'm parked at home during sunlight hours which isn't usually the case.


    And maybe you are right, maybe I'm overly optimistic! Time will tell. But I'm sure you wish me luck right? ;)



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,260 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Installers are typically sales people telling porkies, we've covered it here many times before. They estimate your total production (typically correctly) and then multiply that with the high day rate to get your "annual saving". There is a lot wrong with that.


    I wish you luck of course, I'm a big fan of renewables myself, someone commented to me today that there aren't a lot of people in a small semi D house in a cheap suburb of Dublin that have as much PV as me 😁 I also have 2 EVs and a large home made power wall system



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭con747


    I have 10kw of batteries and find they do my normal base load and usage at night and have about 50% left in the morning most days now but will be emptied fairly quickly come winter. I don't see where 10 kw of batteries will be of use to your EV after your base load is taken into account. Plenty on this site will correct me and provide detailed maths either way i'm sure 😀

    Don't expect anything from life, just be grateful to be alive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,508 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    I'd echo in behind what unkel mentions above. It's not that the suppliers are outright "lying" to you, but let's say that they are painting the "very favorable" picture of your potential savings. it's worthwhile spending some time with Excel and generating a model that you can get in behind yourself. An hour of time will help you either confirm what you've been told, or perhaps guide you to change your assumptions (more/less panels..... bigger/smaller battery etc)

    I think it's also worth mentioning that people sometimes, myself included, get too tied down to is it 9 years payback or 10 years payback, or whatever. The main thing here is a couple of fold.

    1. You -will- get a payback, and it will (providing you didn't buy the "gold plated battery") be in about the decade or so, with current prices. It will be shorter of course if things like the Ukraine continue to drive energy prices and inflation continues to be high.
    2. You're doing something good for the environment. That has "value" in itself. Sure it's often overlooked as we all have to have the nod to "some" kind of fiscal responsibility, but people really should feel good about the actions they take, adopting solar to help drive the journey to renewable energy.
    3. Personally I find a good way to look at it is that I'm paying this once off HUGE whopping leccie bill up front, and that for the next 20-30 years....I'll only pay a fraction of what I would without it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,488 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    Any pics of your power wall? How much can it store?



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭BoxerX


    Can we get back on topic please.



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,260 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    We have several threads for that on this forum, this recent one is an excellent write up (mine is pretty similar but I'm upgrading from 10kWh to 20kWh in the next few weeks)





  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,002 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Yeah.. we might as well park this thread until a provider actually shows their hand.

    Not gonna hold my breath!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭yankinlk


    i thought this thread bluew up becasue some news on FIT. dissapointed. would love to discuss the optimistic battery math - just in another thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭BoxerX


    Anyone with Bord Gais Energy can 'register their interest': https://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/home/help/microgen



  • Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭Bakka


    SSE Airtricity is offering 14 cent per unit. Not so bad. Just waiting to see what Electric Ireland will pay.



  • Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭drunk_monk


    When you say per unit is that the same as per kWh?



  • Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭Bakka




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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,889 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    there's a more active discussion of this going on here




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