Murders of two gay men in Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925451#Comment_118925451

Absolutely. But you would also have to then agree that if the reports are true and that the man was of a certain background, it would be strong grounds to believe that his religion/heritage played a part.

I'd be uncomfortable with that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925510#Comment_118925510

I said it was a hate crime.

But no more and no less of a hate crime than any other premeditated murder.

The murders were absolutely sickening.

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118924039#Comment_118924039

Indeed, both awful murders and shocking for two nieces to discover their uncle in such a condition.

But, indeed, we struggle with stating facts. It makes the problem worse when you find the Irish media saying things like "The Sligo Champion has reported that the man, who grew up in Sligo and attended school there" with a Father Ted awkwardness over the apparent fact that the person isn't a Sligo native.

There's a better way of facing realities.

LineOfBeauty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925528#Comment_118925528

I think you have a pretty warped view on what a hate crime is.

Also it seems from your messages there's like a ranking order going on of what are the worst kind of murders, as though a hate crime murder supersedes a different kind of murder. All murder is bad. This isn't the bad Olympics.

And here's a definition of a hate crime for you: "a crime, typically one involving violence, that is motivated by prejudice on the basis of race, religion, sexual orientation, or other grounds."

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925528#Comment_118925528

But there is nuance here. Targeting certain people to kill based off hatred towards certain aspects/traits/markers of these people is different than a more general run of the mill murder..

not saying that these two murders fit the above description. Will wait to hear more.

Spanish Eyes

Are there any incidents of "love" crime at all? Surely every serious crime is hateful.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925529#Comment_118925529

"isn't a Sligo native"

It's interesting the clamour to try and prove that this person is not Irish. If someone grew up in Sligo, went to school in Sligo as a child, then they are fundamentally no different to a "native".

Otherwise you're implying that there is something in their "non-native" nature which has made the difference here. Which is....you know.

The Irish media are being careful to dispel any rumours that this has been an imported problem. That they arrived in on a boat and started killing people.

If the perp grew up in Ireland, then he's a 100% home-grown problem.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925581#Comment_118925581

Nuance! Not all murders are the same.

example: murdering someone in gangland because they “might” rat you out. Is that a hate crime? No, it’s a premeditated murder. There is no real marker there to label it a hate crime.

Dial Hard

Jesus, the semantic gymnastics some people will engage in to try and convince themselves this doesn't qualify as a hate crime...

cgcsb

He probably thought the older guys would be more vulnerable. A coward, he didn't want to risk a younger guy making him eat floor. Also the older guys probably would have been more accommodating, willing to meet in their own home, at his leisure.

Age is less taboo in gay male circles. I read about a study on age preference in the heterosexual community. They showed a sample of women and men of all age groups a serious of pictures of the opposite sex and asked them to pick the 5 most attractive. Almost all of the men from all age groups picked women aged between 22 and 30. Almost all the women picked men close to their own age.

Perhaps that shows that men maintain their attractiveness later in life ? Or maybe that men only like women in the fertile age range. It makes sense when you look at celebrity culture, Madonna gets laughed at for acting 'sexy' and Harison Ford is celebrated despite not making any effort to look younger than he is.

Either way people are into all sorts and if they're not hurting anyone, what of it. This killer tricked his way into his victims home and brutally murdered them, this is the real story

walshb

Need to dumb this down:

Jonny murdering Mary because she’s Muslim, or gay and Jonny hates Muslims or gays is a hate crime (murder)

Johnny murdering Mary because she cut across him in traffic is not a hate crime murder, or murdering his wife to pocket life assurance is not a hate crime!

hate crimes have specific meaning.

thefallingman

Letting strangers into your home for sex gay or straight is a bad idea and dangerous i hope this message get's out there

LineOfBeauty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925641#Comment_118925641

Wrong attitude with a weird undercurrent of "it was they're own fault"

hookup culture is a thing in society. There's no rowing back on it. What should be out there is taking the proper precautions to lessen the risk as much as possible. That's proactive.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925566#Comment_118925566

My view on what a hate crime is would be: A crime, motivated by hatred of a specific group or individual. I think that would accurately define a hate crime.

These murders would absolutely fit as a hate crime.

I never once claimed there was the "bad olympics". In fact, that is my point. The clamour to call define these murders, from certain people, as a "hate crime" is implying that there is a hierarchy and it in someway makes it more serious.

I think the label of a hate crime makes absolutely no significance to the seriousness of these murders.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925641#Comment_118925641

Cannot say this. You will be accused of victim blaming!

Hoboo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925641#Comment_118925641

Careful now, the common sense argument generally gets attacked by the “you’re victim blaming” and “I should have the right to invite someone into my home without expecting to be possibly attacked” brigade.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925586#Comment_118925586

Generally yes you'd be right but that's not strictly true. There are examples of migrant communities that have insular cultures that are nearly entirely separate from their host nation. I can think of a few examples:

The orthodox Jewish community of Williamsburg New York have been in situ for at least 4 generations. Have their own language, don't allow their members to have Internet or TV access unless they are 'elders' women are forced to marry as teens and banned from education. All married women have to shave their heads. Many cannot speak English at all and most certainly do not call themselves 'Americans'. This is an extreme example sure but look at the Pakistani community of the UK that effectively operates under its own laws. Migrant communities in Ireland are probably too small to achieve these levels of separation from mainstream but it is possible.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925652#Comment_118925652

not sure how you read that, but yes i agree with you on precautions, and one would not be inviting strangers into your home to me that's madness

yerwanthere123

The details that came out of this case yesterday were shocking, I genuinely didn't see it taking this turn. Not good that we had to rely on a UK newspaper to tell us either. Perhaps homophobia in Ireland isn't the key issue to focus on here.

The poor men, I hope their families can somehow find peace.

walshb

What I hope for here is this killer to be permanently removed from society. Utterly dangerous. If I had my way a bullet to the head. But we don’t have this. So 100 years sentence just to be safe. Or in our legal system, life….whatever they agree this to be.

irishproduce

Ireland is both becoming, and is more tolerant than in the past, with regard to sexual orientations, that is for sure. Many wealthy western countries are. But it is silly to ignore that for basically all of human history, Homosexuality was viewed as wrong and in many cases illegal. The religions identify it as morally wrong and forbidden by the different Gods.

The reason I highlight this is because it is not outrageous to think there are religious types here who find it abhorrent and could identify it as a virtue to punish Homosexual people. Remember, we have only entered our period of enlightenment in this part of the world in the last 20 or so years. Many of those from other countries that are not as privileged as us wouldn't see things that way.

We are currently in the middle of the holy month for some people here and so with all the above, I think posters are not outrageous to wonder is this another case of murder of Irish people by others from outside the state. It has happened quite a bit recently

LineOfBeauty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925653#Comment_118925653

I don't see anyone saying that these 2 murders are worse than other murders. Murder is murder.

But the inherent nature of a hate crime means it is an attack against a certain group of people, these 2 people were killed because they were apart of the same community. And as someone in the same group as those 2 men I can tell you it's been a horrible week. 4 high profile homophobic attacks, 2 of those being murders. Which is why it's important to recognise a hate crime when you see it, because it has an effect on that whole community and can be very telling in terms of trends and attitudes to that group which has a knock on effect for the safety of members of that group.

LineOfBeauty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925661#Comment_118925661

Essentially though you're saying don't forget to turn off the taps on the Titanic. It's putting your hands over your eyes and shouting loudly. Hookup culture has existed forever. If you don't feel comfortable, don't do it obviously. If you are going to do it though then take precautions. Trying to argue a problem out of existence is just unrealistic.

It's either a hate crime or it's a serial killer / sexual thing, depending on the motive. It sounds like hate crime though based on the rumours.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925641#Comment_118925641

Didn't take you long to start your moralizing about the victims sex lives again..... You're showing your true colours

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925706#Comment_118925706

that's your opinion and i respect it and you but please stop trying to put words in my mouth that fit your opinion. You don't HAVE to bring a stranger into your home the first time you meet them, i didn't years ago in my prime, and i don't now it's dangerous. Even wait till the second time ! Or go to a hotel not on your own in a quiet house. Meet for a beer or a coffee whatever is all i'm saying but each to their own

rovers_runner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925586#Comment_118925586

They grew up in Sligo, in a home of very different views/culture to the locally accepted norms. It would probably be better to phrase it this way, but very much this is an imported problem. If people want to live and prosper here they need to respect the accepted way of life in Ireland.

Confused11811

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925490#Comment_118925490

I'm not saying it's not the case but the full facts haven't been established. It was a horrible crime is all I know. I was actually saying I don't think the current discussions are helpful for society. Society at large doesn't have any responsibility for making a murderer. It's much more specific than that. Blaming society or a section of society does no favours to the victims. On the other hand blaming the victims as has happened on thread here is disgusting too. In the absence of full facts people are filling the void with thier own opinion and prejudice.

The most important thing here is 2 people are dead, the murder found them to be vulnerable targets and acted on his impulse to kill. The blame is with him. His background, religion, race, belief system, mental health are factors in what made him a murderer. But that discussion should be had when the full facts are established and then the understandable emotions and fears of people can be addressed in a responsible lucid manner.

The tone of the current discussions adds no value and certainly doesn't comfort the victims , the families and friends.

With that , I'm out of here. There's a reason I don't post in this forum and AH. All the best , I hope the case hasn't impacted you personally or professionally.

LineOfBeauty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925745#Comment_118925745

Of course they don't "HAVE" to. Nobody has to. It's about educating people about taking proper precautions. And that's why I say the most at risk group of people probably is those of an older age group, who are probably more trusting of what they receive online, who perhaps wouldn't think to text a friend that they're having someone over at a certain time, or who maybe wouldn't send their live location to a friend just to be on the safe side. Things like making sure you receive a face picture first, things like getting their social media if possible, maybe even having a quick video call with them beforehand, all of that stuff are things I'd pretty much always do most of the time and even then I still might go for a coffee or a drink first, but if that isn't happening then taking the other precautions for sure. But that's a matter of educating, rather than a matter of saying to people no more casual hookups.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925788#Comment_118925788

so basically you agree with me then ! good post LOB that will help more than worrying about my post or accusing me of something i didn't say or mean

LineOfBeauty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925796#Comment_118925796

Essentially maybe we are saying the same thing. Though the tone is quite different. Where you sound accusatory, as though these 2 men are at fault for their own murders, my tone would be that hooking up is absolutely OK so long as you feel comfortable doing it and there's guidelines available to you to help with that. At the end of the day, even if you didn't do a single one of those guidelines, it still does not excuse the murder one iota for killing 2 men.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925745#Comment_118925745

What difference does it make if you bring them home after the second or third date? That doesn’t guarantee anything. Your logic doesn’t make any sense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925746#Comment_118925746

Did you see the video of the arrest (not the mail coach road one)? Is the person talking the suspect as that person says “he doesn’t speak English” when the gardai take someone from the front room. The guy is very, very calm when talking to the guard.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925816#Comment_118925816

Nothing guarantees anything Jequ0n you're right but at least you get to see the person, meet them and get a feel for them, are they upfront and normal ect before bringing them to where you live, i would have thought this common sense no ?

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925813#Comment_118925813

dude there you go accusing me again when we are saying the same thing it's weird. Just to be clear, i agree with your last inciteful post and think it will help more than meaningless attacks on me because i don't speak in the same "tone" as you.

dbas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925473#Comment_118925473

Plenty of gay people out there who are very tough, and give off that vibe in photographs etc.

All I meant was, this perpetrator appears to have selected gentle looking men to victimise.

A psychopathic parasite who's name will hopefully be forgotten long before his victims names.

RIP

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925837#Comment_118925837

And how do you know they didn’t meet in a public place for a first glance and then headed home?

If someone has bad intentions they will carry them out whenever or wherever it seems suitable.

LineOfBeauty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925857#Comment_118925857

I don't think not victim blaming is particularly inciteful but there you go. And I'm not interested at all in attacking you. The only important thing is that hopefully they've found the right guy, that maybe it's time we took an introspective look at why hate crimes are so much on the rise here, and how we can try to be safer to protect ourselves as much as possible after a genuinely horrible week for the community.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925875#Comment_118925875

I don't, none of us know all the details. It's reducing the risk Jequ0n in my opinion, not making it easy.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925888#Comment_118925888

Your advice would be inciteful to people who are meeting up with strangers that's what i meant, letting friends know ect.

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925586#Comment_118925586

Tbh, the more obvious "clamour" is the one I was drawing attention to. Ironically, if the person was a Sligo native, the papers wouldn't be saying they "grew up and attended school" there.

You've actually illustrated the Father Ted awkwardness that I'm talking about.

LineOfBeauty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925899#Comment_118925899

Fair enough, basically I think we're both getting at the same thing. I'm just saying that, and I know this from experience, guys of that age just aren't as tech savvy as younger guys, that sounds like a generalisation, maybe it is, but that's just been my experience of it. And to guys of that age group, you've been texting a guy online, a question of trust probably would barely factor into their thoughts because they're taking the guy at face value. He says he wants casual sex, you want casual sex. Getting the word out there about best practice can only be beneficial.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925586#Comment_118925586

Tbf, you can grow up in a country/city and be raised completely different than an average person. One look around Europe would see that.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925907#Comment_118925907

Since time immemorial, humans have always sought to "other" perpetrators of crime so as to distance themselves and their community from it. To comfort themselves in the knowledge that this was an external evil visited upon their community and therefore it could never have been their father, mother, brother, sister, cousin, child, who had committed these acts.

And that by banishing the "others" we can resume a peaceful life.

The first question people always ask about a murderer is whether they were a local. Always. That's why the media goes to establish it as soon as they can. Because when they don't, people always jump to the conclusion that they weren't.

Ten of Swords

@thefallingman do not post in this thread again

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925947#Comment_118925947

Fine, then don't we need to acknowledge that human instinct and deal with it honestly. Instead of suppressing facts, and reporting deliberating misleading facts. That's all I'm saying. The selection of facts in that Sligo Champion article shows their editorial policy is hyper-sensitive to race - that's simply the case.

But you are insinuating I'm racist for saying just that (and, yes, you are - no need to dodge). And many of us find the problem is made worse, not better, by that rush to judgment by folk who share that awkward Father Ted impulse.

Senature

RIP to the poor men and their families, totally horrific and barbaric killings.

For those who think it is irrelevant that the victims are members of the gay community, maybe consider that the murderer did not find these victims on dating websites for heterosexual people. It seems obvious just from that one detail that their sexual orientation is what unfortunately made them targets of the perpetrator.

As an aside, the reports from the times are written by an Irish journalist, they have an Ireland section of their newspaper, with a team of journalists, admin staff etc based in an office in Dublin. So the report is essentially from the Irish media.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118922637#Comment_118922637

He has an Irish name

Yurt2

This thread is already a swamp.

RIP to the two victims

NSAman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118926035#Comment_118926035

Except the Irish media are not reporting the full story. It’s infuriating. The same issue is playing out internationally. Many outlets in the States,said the gunman on the train was 5foot 5inches tall but did not mention his race.

i don’t agree with labelling a whole community/race based on stereotypical held beliefs, but there is an agenda in the Irish media to “not offend” Which is causing more issues than it solves.

no one deserves to die due to their sexuality, race, religion. This for me is the abhorrent part. Simply because of perceived difference, these men were killed.