Ownership of licenced rifles and optical sights

1874

Really just clarifying what Im certain to be correct. I have an optical sight which has been handed over to the gardai during postage. I eventually spoke to the Garda and he didnt know that such an item could be owned with or without a rifle. Typically I have optical sights on most of my firearms and the Garda seemed to think this would change my licence requirements.

I said over the phone you dont need a licence for a sight and they are typically fitted to rifles used in many different disciplines.

I was thinking I may have to contact the FPU, is there a number? cant locate one.

imo licencing is only affected regarding moderators and maybe night sights,that will be commented on your licence, Ive 2 rifles with mods.

I dont know how Im going to disprove a law that doesnt exist to get my property back?

any comments or opinions hiw to approach this? FPU direct number and ring in the presence of said Garda?

lefthooker

Why, and who handed it to the Gardai?

And can you clarify, by optical sight do you mean a rifle scope ?

BattleCorp

What exactly do you mean by an optical sight ? Is it a bog standard riflescope or red dot/hologram sight or is it a thermal/night vision sight?

No licence or permission needed for a bog standard telescopic sight or for a red dot/hologram sight.

Grizzly 45

01 6661911 is still I think the FPU number..As said there is no restriction or license required to own a rifle scope. Even if you don't have a firearms license, It's an optical instrument not a firearm, or a critical component of one.

It sounds like you are dealing with an unknowing Garda not knowing what he is dealing with erring on the side of caution. Unless this is some sort of super, state of art nite vision/thermal or ITAR requirement MilSPEC sniper scope and something is wrong with the import paperwork.A call to the FPU and a polite ask to call this Garda at your local will sort this out.

1874

Nothing out of the ordinary, bought it on boards, rifle scope with german post type reticle, unless it being made of Steel, to the best of my knowledge rather than aluminium, nothing untoward about it, thanks for the FPU details, I think I'll give them a ring before I head down.

I was certain there was no requirements, didnt know how I was going to confirm this to said Garda.

1874

Apologies, Ive been saying optical sight lately, opposed to telescopic rifle sight, uninformed people including Gardai seem to interpet that, well imo anyway, as if I'll be on a belltower picking people off, trying to make it sound as inconspicuous as possible while stating accurately what it is.

Said Garda mentioned something along the lines of weren't allowed have them, I was busy in work at the time and being civil while not wanting to be overheard in work with background noise, the gist of it was he didnt think they were allowed and he'd have to get confirmation.

1874

Ive another post about this in legal discussion, basically I was unhappy about it,but likely wasting my time following it up,item was posted to parcelmotel, driver gave it to garage where the lockers are for reasons unknown, staff opened it for the craic? while dishing out car wash tokens? because rather than return it to the courier service (Parcelmotel) decided they had the powers to open a package and investigate its contents (there were some other items in there too) they didnt like the look of any of it so rang the Gardai as anyone who has a rifle sight sent to them is under suspicion of the staff of unnamed garage, while I am being tongue in cheek about it, this is actually what happened.

Asus1

Who gave it to the Garda or how did they get it

1874

Apologies, rifle scope, run of the mill, nothing out of the ordinary

1874

Thanks for the replies, I have found the whole episode of getting my hands on my own property to be ridiculous,some people seem to be very poorly informed.

1874

I just posted before you asked, in reply to someone else, same question. Im confounded by the unrepentant response when the staff of an unconnected business told me they opened my package that was meant to be delivered to the parcelmotel lockers on the outside of the building.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885403#Comment_118885403

Whooo Boy!! Lawyer up with the most litigious company you can find and sue said garage and UPS who runs Parcel motel. I use PM myself and this is a CLEAR breach of contract and utterly sloppy procedure.

WHY would the driver give it to people utterly unconnected with the PM operation,or you for that matter? Apart from renting/leasing the ground off the garage company, which is none of the petrol heads' business anyway, as they have zero control of those lockers?As explained to me by my local, when I inadvertently locked my phone in the hatch...Don't ASK!!!😖😣

2] What or who gave them permission to open a parcel in no way connected with them or their company in the 2nd place? [3] Or gave them the authority to make that judgement call? Did they contact their supervisor, or did he/she/it? decide their authority was enough to even accept the package?

Good job it wasn't anything embarrassing in the package.Like your new gimpsuit and sex aids.😂

It's another reason people use PM is for the privacy of their purchases. So this is another factor that you have been violated on. All in all, once you get your scope and other bits back from Garda Noclue. I'd run this past a lawyer.

1874

Thought you were joking, I cooled off after my initial annoyance, Garda wasnt interested and seemed to write it off as the staff not knowing who owned item despite my number on outside. I agree with what you are saying,but as Im the recipient of the package, although I bought the items, Im not 100% sure Im in a position to follow it up legally having not sent the item using ParcelMotel,Im only the recipient (well not yet). if the scope is damaged, Id say that is certainly going to have me looking for options.

Cass

MODERATOR NOTE/WARNING

Just a reminder lads. While "I'd do such and such" is allowed the giving of legal advice is not permitted. Please remain on the right side of that fine line.

1874

Just checked, reply from UPS customer care says delivery to garages is within parcelmotels terms and conditions and I need to take it up with garage (presumably for opening package) and with Gardai, not sure why they'd suggest the latter, as the Gardai seem to be doing their job responding to the garage thinking the package was suspicious (after opening it) I didnt know garage staff had those powers legally, no gimpsuits via parcelmotel for me! that would be embarrasing to collect.

Cass

1874 - I dont know how Im going to disprove a law that doesnt exist to get my property back?

You don't have to. Section 1 of the firearms act, 1925, as reminded in section 4 of the 1990 offensive weapons act only lists specific sights as being required to be licensed/authorisation sought. They are:

(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic light amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph

Anything else is not licenseable as it is evident by its absence from the firearm Acts.

Go collect your scope, then deal with the mess of the delivery of it later.

1874

Thanks for all the advice, I'll update with the outcome

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886048#Comment_118886048

Leaving it with the business is within procedure for most courier companies.

It’s not the OPs property until delivered afaik. So would be up to the sender to take action (I had this issue with a recent parcel going missing).

OP has every right to be pissed off. But I think suing, or even speaking to a solicitor, would quickly cost more than any damages he could claim (assuming he gets the scope back in working order).

Grizzly 45

If it is a company like DPD, their delivery is in care of a designated garage/shop/etc closest to you.IF undeliverable to your address,or you want it sent there to the pickup point. That is made clear in their T&Cs. So there wouldn't be anything the OP could do in that case. Also if there is a problem, they will either ring or txt /email you...Most of the time.

Parcel motel OTOH eliminates that human interaction of having a 3rd party taking custody of your parcels.You get an email or text with notification of delivery and an access code to the locker to collect your package within 24 hours. PM also notifies you that they have received the parcel in their depot and it is out for delivery. As they give you a street address in Dublin as your delivery address,I'd contest that if it is delivered there you have received it? be as it may,and without being a legal advocate ... I'd feel that there is a breach of contract and procedure under the following points;

1] Why was this suspicious package not returned to the Dublin depot and the OP was contacted by PH to address this issue?

2] The package wasn't obviously very bulky as to not fit in the lockers, so it needed to be left in the care of the garage, which is going against PH delivery terms anyway,as they have weight and bulk restrictions?

3] Why did the driver decide to breach procedures and simply not return the parcel and let the HQ deal with it, as well as involving a 3rd party? Or just do their job and put it in the locker as they are supposed to do and forget about it? That for all intent and purpose has nothing got to do with operating or access to the PH lockers? As I pointed out in my locked-in phone case?

4]What reason did the staff/management decide to inform the Guards about this package? And under whose authority did they consider taking it upon themselves to tamper with mails,[if the 2011 communications regulations act [postal services], applies to courier companies]by opening a suspicious package that had nothing to do with them?

5] Why didn't PH inform the OP that there was a problem, and he finds out via AGS about this fiasco?

From where I'm sitting any lawyer worth his fees could build a case on all of this...But that's the OPs choice of how to continue.

Mellor

As they give you a street address in Dublin as your delivery address,I'd contest that if it is delivered there you have received it?

I can see your point. But you get the same text from DPD, UPS, An Post etc when they have your parcel in their depot, in the van etc. Until it's delivered its not yours. But I agree that parcel motel is a third party to the delivery process - ie they are not the courier.

be as it may,and without being a legal advocate ... I'd feel that there is a breach of contract and procedure under the following points;

Seems valid. But the 1-3 are really the same issue. And OP has confirm that its within there T&Cs. Worth checkign if UPS are telling the truth there though. The PM location may have been full. I've never used it so not sure if that's likely.

4) What problem? As far as UPS was concerned, they delivered it without issue. It was the staff that invented the issue.

5) Agree that the staff were overstepping the mark. Either the sender or the OP has a grievance there. Depending on when it was delivered. But not sure that the reward would be worth chasing.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889335#Comment_118889335

Well, UPS emailled me to state PMotel state its within their Ts&Cs if a locker is faulty to leave it with a garage/business attached, that seems unusual to me and I havent confirmed it, I certainly never knew of this, despite that, PMotel never bothered to contact me whatsoever regarding the method of their delivery??

It was the sender that enquired if Id received the item as it was marked "delivered" in their Parcelmotel account, Id received no contact from PM myself, so when I checked my Parcelmotel account I was surprised to see that it was marked "proof of delivery" 2 days prior and no contact by text as usual (well as usual the last time I used Pmotel). The garage staff admitted they opened it within 1 hour of receiving it and they told me different accounts as to why they opened it, (I even went to the garage the evening before they admitted they had opened it and staff at the time stated they do not take packages for PMotel), I double checked the next day and asked to speak to the manager and Im certain it was the same staff member then admitted they didnt know who's it was so opened it, No attempt made on their part to contact PMotel who are marked on the packaging with address at Jamestown rd in Finglas OR me as my mobile no. was on package, although the initial zero was missing, It looks like a phone number to me (as I was sent a picture of the label by sender before they sent it off). Garage staff claimed initially they didnt know who's it was which I find unusual if not suspicious if UPS state PM say its an established practice to leave items in garage, the parcel was thoroughly sealed and taped up as the seller told me and I know them through shooting/previous experience so I believe them 110%.

I have asked for Acts of law regarding licensing, grateful for the informative replies, always learning and re-learning in shooting. I am however very concerned about the laws sneaked under the radar (most likely during covid :)) that has given shop attendants the powers of stop seizure and search, I am afraid to go back to that store in case Im arrested and waterboarded (by the staff) for being a potential threat to society in general in their eyes, if anyone knows of the Acts of law, I will start contacting local politicians (assuming they aren't in on it too) to repeal these undemocratic laws :), if you never hear back from me, you know what happened to me.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118888596#Comment_118888596

This was Parcelmotel involved, I never had this kind of experience with them before. UPS deal with their customer service it seems (I never knew this) and UPS stated Pmotel said/claimed the lockers were defective (not sure how many) and so the driver left it in the garage, although I was never emailed or texted about that. Although when I spoke to UPS customercare initially, after checking they got back to me and they told me Parcelmotel stated the item was still in a locker 3 days later, which is also odd as they usually give you 24 hours to collect I think, when I already knew the Gardai had it, I was waiting for them to confirm it had not been delivered.

No idea why the driver didnt return parcel to depot and Pmotel contact me? not sure I believe their story about non functional lockers due to them saying it was still in a locker.

Garage staff decided to open it for reason initially, that they didnt know who it was for (they gave a few different reasons/excuses though) despite my mobile number on the outside, and my PMID for parcelmotel (given Parcelmotel state they leave packages at attached garages, I have no idea why the staff didnt contact Pmotel as they are named (and their address) on the packaging as sender sent image of label to me prior to sending), even my mobile no. is on there, although the initial zero is not present, it very obviously looks like a mobile number.

When they saw the contents after they opened it, they decided to contact Gardai, thats when they allegedly became concerned, AFTER THEY BROKE INTO THE PACKAGE. Thats what they told me, maybe the driver already broke into the package intentionally or by damaging it?? or the staff did?

I actually found out via the staff the Gardai had it, and then the manager who I left my number to ring me back, they were absolutely and completely unrepentant about their actions. In fact, the manager imo in a somewhat smart manner stated, "whats the problem, sure havent you received your package!" (and you know where it is)well I had not received my package, nor have I received it yet, it is still in Gardai possession, although after I followed up and looked for Garda dealing with it, he did ring me back after and said they will be releasing the items to me, but it will take either a few days or up till next week, which is ok. The manager still see's no problem (as were the staff) and is oblivious to any wrongdoing.

I believe the manager thought I would not be attending the Gardai to look for my property back. The Gardai were only involved because the staff opened the package and prior to that, Pmotel had delivered it to them??

There are some discrepancies in what I have been told imo regarding lockers and other things, but it seems I'll be getting my property back soon enough, although I was told by the Garda that an investigation was opened by the Gardai about it. In fairness, they are only responding to a persons contact about it, no matter how misguided and misinformed that person/s (manager and staff) are about it.

Chiparus

May be helpful:

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2011/act/21/section/53/enacted/en/html

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890645#Comment_118890645

Thanks, I already found that, no one seems interested, personally Id be happy getting my items back, I wouldnt mind sending a complaint (via solicitor but not threatening legal route) into the business (so the owners know, as the manager and staff could easily brush this aside, maybe the owners wont care though if any funds they get are enough to offset a complaint or complaints) and also to UPS/PM just to put a warning in there, maybe it will be enough that they will put an end to doing it OR tighten up the practices so people aren't at risk of losing their packages AND if anyone is doing anything dodgy, maybe it will help put the spotlight on them and discourage it or highlight them to their employers.

It still seems like a poor practice thats not widely known (for PM) to hand off items to another business, especially without alerting the recipient. Ive gotten other packages delivered to a garage using parcelwizard (and I think also a shop in my locality), but I knew I could collect at the location (you select the place, so you know its happening), and the staff seemed more clued in with the process (they knew it was a service provided), plus the items were not opened the times I utilised the service.

Parcelmotel have in my opinion gone downhill substantially, will be reluctant to use them after this.

That all said, if the items are damaged, then I'll be proceeding differently and I will be looking at what options I have.

Cass

Lads, this is a less formal note than anything from a Moderator position.

The debate seems to be focused on what Parcel Motel or DPD can or should do, legally. The shooting forum is not the place for such a discussion and the OP has said they have a thread in the legal discussion forum for such talk.

The focus of this thread is about whether a scope can be seized, does it require a license, and what the OP should do about the scope. Anything else is not under the purview of this forum so if the conversation continues along the delivery issues/companies rather than the scope itself I'll move all posts over to the legal discussion thread.

To the OP, and as with my reply above. If the scope is a regular scope (not nightvision, thermal, light emiiting or similar) then it requires no license and you should procesd to the Garda station and reclaim your property.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890835#Comment_118890835

I have attended the Garda station, I provided licence and club membership details, but as I was told the items were currently locked in storage elsewhere.

I was contacted by phone quite soon after and told the items would be available for collection no later than a week, but possibly sooner. As I have asked for people's advice, I will update the post when I receive items, rather than not say anything and posters who replied could be wondering what came of it.

Cass

As slow as that is at least you are getting it back.

As for this:

1874 -  I will update the post when I receive items, rather than not say anything and posters who replied could be wondering what came of it.

Please do update us on how you get on, but the note above is a reminder that the shooting forum is for shooting matters. It is not a chastisation nor is it a restriction on your ability to discuss shooting matters. However the delivery/courier company and its actions are not shooting related and the legal implications of their actions is best suited to the legal forum.

17hmr1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892397#Comment_118892397

The whole situation is really weird to be honest.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895361#Comment_118895361

I agree (I'm assuming you don't mean anything else, Im trying to keep it shooting related within the guidelines/forum rules). The thing is, I actually left some stuff out purposefully as it may have just sounded like I was being critical of people involved or highlighting shortcomings in knowing certain things (firearms laws related), Overreaction, Debacle or possibly fiasco could be appropriate to describe.

17hmr1

I'm not doubting you,it just seems everyone had way too much time on their hands and has made something out of nothing.From the person messing with someone else's package to the Garda dealing with it.I can't understand the whole fiasco.

Cass

I had a very similar incident some years back with a local young lad. On his way home, stopped at a check point, Garda seen the rifle case, young opened it upon request, Garda seen the "sniper rifle" (CZ 22lr with 3-9 scope) and seized the gun and scope because the youung lad didn't have a "license for the scope" (young lad showed his firearm license).

He contacted me (i presume due to his young age, first gun, and being nervous). I drove over to him, then to the Garda station. Garda in question was on duty, but I asked for the Sergeant. I was polite, but firm and told the Sergeant the young was licensed, the firearm was locked away in a lockable case, on the back seat of his car (won't fit in the boot) so why was it seized. The Garda then piped up saying there was no license for the scope. The Sergeant looked at the Garda, obviously unaware of what had happened, walked to the gun safe, took out the young lads rifle and handed it back to him there and then with an apology for the hassle.

Moral of the story is not every Garda is an expert, or even close. Most know their stuff and don't set out to cause hassle, but ignorance and inability to admit they were wrong seems to be at the core of a lot of these issues. They don't, afaik, do any special training to fill the position of Firearms Offcier (I believe there is no official position even, its just what we call it) and most have to learn on the job.

There are 19 firearm acts, 63 SIs, and 2 or 3 EU directives. No one and I do mean NO ONE knows it all. Hell I have all this at my fingertips and still struggle, especially when it comes to interpretation of some aspects. Its why I try to allow for mistakes, but I also expect the rectification of any action to be as quick and the catalyst. In other words your scope should not have been "seized" but when they seen it was a scope (no different legally to a telescope for star gazing) it should have been left where it was (ideally) or returned to you immediately.

1874

So, I still don't have my property back!

Garda in question had said there was no problem with me having stuff back (no surprise there for me, as it's my property). Said he'd contact me this week and it would be this week. Now while I understand in anything that there can be delays and the Gardai have other things to do too and while I'm not urgent, I'd just like to get this put to bed and have my stuff back.

I had to ring following up and got through to the Garda in question who told me it would be end of this week, if so fine, what I'm preparing for is especially given the weekend in it, that my property isn't handed into my possession. Then I might start to think I'm being given excuses and not explanations, what options is the best to resolve this?

On the phone next if items aren't available or fobbed off again?

Ask Garda his shoulder board number?as I didn't jot it down after speaking to him, (seems reasonable and fair to me so I can identify him to someone more senior in case there is another Garda with the same name in the same location, although I get the sense Gardai are bothered about giving that out).

Ask for Unit? Ask for Sergeant name to contact? Ask for Inspector name to contact? Superintendant? not even necessarily for me to contact, maybe for me to direct someone to send a letter. I'd prefer not be forced to take that approach.

I think I have been reasonable, patient and civil (obviously).

Either my property is available at my next contact and preferably I don't have to chase them down again, if not, whats the best option

Grizzly 45

As said before you need to lawyer up!

As any lawyer worth their fees would be ringing the station and sending legal writs to the Super of this district and station about AGS holding onto your property illegally. Or better still appearing at the hatch and demanding to speak to the Super in person. You are being too nice about this to all concerned who have jerked you around.

BTW I went thru the terms and conditions of the use of the PM lockers and it says NOTHING about drivers being able to leave the parcels with the garage for collection[It would defeat the whole purpose of PM]

The only thing it says about anything Vaugely relevant to you is;

Article 3 Prohibited items FIREARMS, WEAPONRY, AMMUNITION AND THEIR PARTS. At a very vague and stretching the limits is a rifle scope a part.

and the Right to inspect Your Parcel(S) may, at our option or at the request of government authorities, be opened and contents inspected by us or such authorities at any time. Doesn't apply either,as petrol heads are not Govt authorities...Unless we woke up in N Korea this morning!

1874

I'd prefer there wasn't needless hassle and just get my property back, I was thinking to preferably raise the question of asking for the Superintendants details to try move things along, if there isn't a response to getting them back or enquiring for the Superintendants details, I'll be getting a solicitor involved, I think if I go down myself demanding to speak to the Superintendant, it's possible they can twist things or keep me waiting or decline to deal with me, whereas a solcitiors letter is official and Id expect recorded.

tonysopprano

This is what accepting illegal moves by PTB, or rolling over and accepting sub-standard service, get for EVERYONE not just you. Being afraid to stand-up for yourself, harms, not only your case but emboldens them to screw everyone, as has been shown time after time. Other posters on here making excuses for ILLEGAL practices, e.g. taking more than 3 months, do not help anyone. The law is the law, for them just like us. The more people that stand up for themselves, and go the legal route, if necessary, benefits us all.

1874

All, just an update, I was busy so didn't have a chance at the time, but about 10 days I ago, I got my property back, I think there is still something to be said for being persistent and possibly even more trouble than you're worth by being annoying in a nice way than going in like a bull in a china shop (not using another idiom). Although I was unhappy with it dragging on, I got my property in the end, that's not to say it wouldn't be necessary to go the legal route eventually in some scenarios, But I don't think that route would have been any quicker in this case (and possibly would have dragged it out longer with the added bonus of the expensive for me).

Thanks for the advice, could lock thread or maybe better to leave it open if anyone sees it and has had a similar experience or wants to ask advice from respondents to the thread.

slipperyox

Order another one! 😉