Gardai Identifying Themselves?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915235#Comment_118915235

so, not your home then. they entered the common area of a building. a building that was unlocked. anybody could have walked in. and they wouldn't have done anything illegal either.

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915215#Comment_118915215

You see, you aren't answering the question now. Your tenant does ordinarily reside at the apartment. Therefore they had a power of entry without any warrant and they don't need your permission or any one else's.

They don't need any warrant to enter a common area whatsoever. The power of entry to the apartment includes a power of entry to all associated common areas and the curtilage of land.

If they attempted to enter the wrong apartment due to a mistake then that is what it was, a mistake. Plenty of case law exonerating Gardaí from any sort of criminal liability when a genuine error was made in terms of entering a property to effect an arrest / execute a warrant.

But to be honest I am not sure I believe you. All of your initial comments were giving out about the fact that Gardaí had entered a common area and you were unhappy with this and stated they had no warrant or permission to be there. We've shown that you are wrong, they do have a power to enter the common areas for a number of reasons and they do not need your permission or any warrant.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915234#Comment_118915234

Again THEY didn't, one flashed a badge. If somebody identifies themself you would know their name. I never said I was alone. You and your assumptions show you are making it up in your own mind

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915235#Comment_118915235

You were the one that stated you own the property and it is made up of different apartments, then later you say this

  'Are you happy to have strangers just walk into your home?'

So which is it?

I have been nothing but helpful to you, providing links to legislation and explaining that even if they were gardai, they can be from anywhere. You on the other hand, give us different versions of events Every time you post 🙄

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915254#Comment_118915254

Yeah I am not here to answer your questions. They entered a flat that was clearly not the flat they were looking for. They didn't attempt to enter they entered. Clarify every step they took seems so important I have now clarified they entered a flat. If I omitted detail in first post I am sorry it is so pedantic, I mentioned they were on the stairs which is in the 3rd flat which is on the 3rd floor with the 2nd being the 2nd floor and 1st on 1st floor. You would want to be some idiot to think the 3rd floor flat was no.2.

Can you explain why they would have the right to enter that property after not seeing anyone go into it? Why would they have any reason to suspect he was in a seperate property. They had no valid reason to enter under the circumstances.

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915300#Comment_118915300

It's already been explained to you umpteen times why they had a power of entry. If they were attempting to arrest a person for an arrestable offence, then they had a power of entry without the need for any warrant if the person ordinarily resides at the dwelling. You've already acknowledged they were meaning to access another apartment. They do not have to have seen anyone entering or leaving any apartment.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915295#Comment_118915295

The question remains you can answer or not it does not relate to my circumstances or even allude to them. No you have suggested I am withholding information and there is more? That is to allude to me lying. Go read back and point out the huge differences in my statements.I have clarified they went past the common area as that was such an issue and did mention they were coming up stairs at the start which is in a flat and not a common area. So what is missing from the story that you need to know that is relevant?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915319#Comment_118915319

the stairs up to the next floor is inside a flat? that makes no sense.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915316#Comment_118915316

Lets clarify, you are saying they can enter another private residence in any building split into flats if they are looking for a person in any one flat in the building? That seems extremely unlikely to me.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915340#Comment_118915340

It is a gerogian house split into flats and it is very common. One of the rooms in the flat is a return room on the stairs. Still won't acknowledge they didn't identify themselves I see but want to nitpick about a building you have never been in. Don't claim to be reasonable discussing this from now on.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915355#Comment_118915355

I know what a return room is. the stairs are not inside it. the stairs are next to it.

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915344#Comment_118915344

That's not what I am saying, and given the way the story has changed in this thread I wouldn't be confident that this is what happened. You didn't mention it at all until it was pointed out to you the they did have a right to be in the common area, which was the initial source of your angst.

What I am saying is that if they wished to arrest a person for an arrestable offence, then they had a power of entry into that persons apartment which includes a power of entry into the common areas of the property.

If they did attempt to enter your apartment mistakingly, which I would question, then it was a mistake and there is case law which shows that Gardaí are not criminally liable for making an honest mistake when it comes to the identification of a property when effecting an arrest or executing a warrant. I can understand why it would leave a sour taste if it happened, but mistakes do happen unfortunately. If any damage was done to a door or so on then you would be entitled to compensation from the State Claims Agency. That's about it though.

It's OK to be wrong. If you thought they didn't have a power of entry and had no right to be in the common area then that's OK. We have shown that they did, it's no big deal.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915366#Comment_118915366

Don't comment nor reply if you don't believe me.

I have clarified and they did not attempt to enter the 3rd flat they did. If they mistakenly entered the wrong place they were idiots given the layout of the property. If they made a mistake they should have been apologetic and freely identified themsleves rather than try to stay in the property and not identifying themselves.

It is a big deal to me and if you have no problem with it good for you but I like my privacy and will protect my tenants' too. No matter what these people acted inappropriately. Their code of conduct maybe discretionary but it is there to tell them to act appropriately and they did not.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915362#Comment_118915362

I am just going to ignore you now as you are adding nothing and don't know the property. The stairs is inside the flat with a door at the bottom of the stairs believe it or not

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915425#Comment_118915425

well you have ignored everybody else so you might as well ignore me as well.

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915414#Comment_118915414

I'll comment in whatever thread I want to comment in for the purpose of correcting incorrect statements, thank you very much. You stated they did not have a power of entry and should not have been common areas whatsoever because they were not pursuing anyone or dealing with an immediate crime. That is not true and I feel it is important to point that out in the Legal Discussion forum - where we discuss the legality of things. Especially for people who may read back on this topic down the line for information regarding their own individual issues.

I don't have anything else to add really other than you should make a complaint to GSOC if you feel the Gardaí acted inappropriately, but judging by your comments in the thread to date it's hard to see how a finding of misconduct would be made.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915432#Comment_118915432

You can of course talk of legalities but no reason to talk about me being untruthful because if you don't beleive me there is no point commenting on the specific if you are going to make claims of what happened when you weren't there. AS a moderator you should know better. Report me if you have an issue.

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915366#Comment_118915366

It's all in the OP's first post if you read it carefully,

They were showing somebody a flat in the top of the house, there is work been done in the house of the front door wasn't locked.

Two men claiming the be Gardai were stopped by the op and challenged by the op. He made them leave (if they had a clear right to be there they wouldn't have left). They didn't identify themselves properly. They flashed one badge that could have come from a toy shop for all we know because they didn't want op to see it for long.

Any garda I've ever meet will give their surname, station and show their warrant card. These pair were caught breaking the rules/code/law and didn't want to be identified. They tried to distance themselves from OP and didn't go back to their car they walked away at first.

If they wanted to arrest somebody for an arrestable offence they need a warrant to do so from their home under normal circumstance.

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915925#Comment_118915925

You absolutely do not need an arrest warrant to arrest someone from their dwelling where they reside. That isn't common practice whatsoever. An arrest warrant would usually be obtained if there is a question mark over where a person resides, or if it is not known where they reside.

Regardless, there is still a power of entry with or without an arrest warrant - assuming that the dwelling is where the person ordinarily resides. Admittedly we do not know that is the case here, but to say Gardaí have no power of entry to a common area / specific apartment without a warrant is not correct. That's the point I am making. There is a power of entry and search to effect an arrest and the power is exercised daily right across the country and is rarely challenged in the courts.

There's little point basing the entire conversation on the assumption that there is no power for Gardaí to be present when, in fact, there is a power and could be the explanation to what happened. If the OP is not satisfied that this is the case here then he should absolutely make a complaint and see what happens. Just don't be surprised if nothing comes of it, or if it turns out they weren't Gardaí at all, which there is a strong chance is the actual case here. If that is the case there is not a whole lot that can be done without CCTV or at least a registration number for the car.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915925#Comment_118915925

'If they wanted to arrest somebody for an arrestable offence they need a warrant to do so from their home under normal circumstance.'

Well, that proves you know nothing about the law. Thanks, your advise can be ignored.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915991#Comment_118915991

VITAL INFORMATION YOU MISSED. They did not name the person and referred to him as resident of flat number 2 after they entered what was clearly flat number 3. So I am not sure any of what you are saying about an individual applies. To an extent the accusation was against the property. Judging by the speed they arrived after we entered it appears they were watching the property. THe facts are as I tell them not how you decided to fill in details.

There really isn't any contradiction in anything I have said unless you are looking to catch me out and point to a technicallity to allow gardai behavior.

Do you really think it should be allowed for a gardai to enter private property and then refuse to identify themselves? If it is legal I am disgusted with our laws but more digusted at the view of people here to think it is right and make excuses

Shield

Reminder for everyone reading that I invited the OP into Emergency Services a few pages back, where he can get actual answers from actual Gardaí all day long but he chooses not to. Make of that what you will.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916442#Comment_118916442

they have received answers from serving gardai. they just dont like the answers.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916442#Comment_118916442

What is that meant to infer? Just because I didn't accept your invite is it meant to suggest I am up to something?

rock22

Am I to take it that a garda can enter my home without any warrant ?

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118926163#Comment_118926163

This has been explained mutiple times.

walshb

Ray, what is all the inconvenience here? Gardai made a mistake? What hardship/suffering did you endure due to AGS trying to carry out their duties?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118926450#Comment_118926450

What do you think was a mistake? Not identifying themselves or entering a property illegally? It caused me distress as I am not even sure they are gardai

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118927157#Comment_118927157

how was it illegal?

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118927157#Comment_118927157

And have you “recovered” from this ordeal?