Gardai Identifying Themselves?

Ray Palmer

A strange incident happened today.

I was in a property and I heard an odd noise and went to look to see what it was. A stranger to me was coming up the stairs. I asked who he was and he flashed a badge. I insisted he got out of the building. He tried to stall and turn around but I insisted he and the person behind him got out. Wearing shirts and ties but winter jackets.

At the door I asked him to identify himself and he flashed a badge again and when I went to look he pulled it away. There was a weird chat but I insisted he identify himself and the other guy should do too. Second guys acts like he is going to show ID and then both turn and walk away ignoring me.

I watch and note where these guys go and they are just walking away. No car? Kept an eye open and they came back to a car and still refused to ID claiming they already did. To me an 06 car seems a bit odd for detectives to be using

So how do I know these guys were legit? Is this legal behavior? a bit freaked out as it appears they may have been watching the property considering how quickly they arrived after me.

GM228

Old thread on Garda ID requirements:-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057688526/uniformed-gardai-and-identification

In particular this post:-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/102164731#Comment_102164731

What you describe does sound odd (an 06 car wouldn't actually be unusual in some districts), you can always make enquiries at the local station.

Atlantic Dawn

If you had the reg of the car and put it in to the motortax website and no rate came back it would be legit, there's probably a handful left of the Mondeo's of that era still knocking about.

I'd ring the local station and see if it was legit. It's a big offence to be pretending to be a Garda.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881780#Comment_118881780

Local gardai said I had to come in and make a formal statement. It wasn't a Mondeo

Atlantic Dawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881799#Comment_118881799

Was it a Dublin reg?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881806#Comment_118881806

yeap

Atlantic Dawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881810#Comment_118881810

Could be legit.

I'd be inclined to go for legal advice and have a solicitor present if you make a statement, wouldn't make one on my own.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881814#Comment_118881814

Why would he need a solicitor present when making a statement to the Gardai? He hasn't done anything wrong and hasn't been accused of doing anything wrong. He's only making a statement that he saw two people who may or may not have been Gardai on a premises.

Was it your property OP? Has it been empty a while? Could other people be using it?

How did this pair get in?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881814#Comment_118881814

Legal advise for what? to make a witness statement? What solicitor is going to go to a station with someone because they saw two people who may or may not have been gardai?

There are some really paranoid people out there!

Peintre Celebre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881814#Comment_118881814

This kind of advice is always truly baffling.

You certainly do not need a solicitor.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886421#Comment_118886421

A person lives there. I was showing somebody the top flat which has been empty but with people going down doing work. No other people could have been using it. I hadn't locked the door behind me so they opened the door and came in. They appeared to be looking for the person who lives there but never used his name only the flat number.

The thing is we had an issue before where somebody made repeated claims of drug dealing from the property by different tenants. It appeared to be a neighbour causing trouble.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887459#Comment_118887459

So quite possibly they were gardai then

I wouldn't count on finding out for sure though, they may not want to be identified or their reason for being there known.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887528#Comment_118887528

Which they can't do legally. The entered the property without a warrant nor permission and refused to identify themselves. I think I will go to the Garda Ombudsman. It is possible they are gardai acting like thugs or thugs pretending to be gardai.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887547#Comment_118887547

or do what somebody else suggested and ask in the local garda station.

maestroamado

I think a Gardai must give their number to a member of the public on request when on duty... sounds dodgy to me...

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887555#Comment_118887555

If I go to the local station and show them pictures of these guys do you think they will tell me? They won't question me a lot on the subject and be accusing me? There are many reasons I don't trust them and would rather not go to a station.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887547#Comment_118887547

That's not exactly true. You stated the premises is broken into flats. The common areas of such wouldn't need a warrant, given they were not searching anywhere.

Also, you stated they showed you a badge, so they did what they legally have to. How did they act like thugs exactly?

But yep, you are quite entitled to go to the ombudsman

tabby aspreme

I know a few detectives, and their transport varies from a 15 year old van with ladders and pipe carriers on the roof hiding surveillance cameras, to a very nice BMW M4

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887584#Comment_118887584

How did you get the pics... was there anything going on that would make it necessary for a Gardai to be present...

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887589#Comment_118887589

The common area is not public, they can't enter a property when they feel like it. The could be reading the names on letters in the common area and other private information. Flashed a badge and refused to let me even read his name and one of them didn't even do that. Failed to identify themselves in real terms and wouldn't say his name. They didn't leave when told and kept stepping towards me to intimidate me, had to tell him several times to step back from me. Thugs with a sense of entilement

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887584#Comment_118887584

What would they accuse you of?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887579#Comment_118887579

There is no obligation on a member to give their 'number' to anyone

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887584#Comment_118887584

accuse you of what? you go in and say these people represented themselves as guards and take it from there. They will (or should) take it seriously.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887641#Comment_118887641

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887633#Comment_118887633

They could accuse me of anything that they think is going on for example. But do you think if I go to a station they are going to tell me if these are gardai?

They are obliged to identify themselves if in plain clothes and they didn't. Flashing a badge is not identifying themselves

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887641#Comment_118887641

I think if a Gardai is asking questions of a person they are duty bound to say they are a member and make themselves known...

The Offences Against the State Acts are a series of laws passed by the Irish Government to stop terrorism, namely the IRA. If the Garda is not wearing their uniform, they must show you identification if you ask them. You may need to give your name and address. If you refuse to do so, you could be arrested.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887654#Comment_118887654

you do realise that if you make this complaint to GSOC that it will be investigated by a garda officer, right?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887694#Comment_118887694

Not true. Independent body

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887708#Comment_118887708

for disciplinary investigations the investigation is carried out by a senior garda officer who may be supervised by a GSOC investigator.

https://www.gardaombudsman.ie/make-a-complaint/before-you-complain/how-we-deal-with-complaints/investigation/

Disciplinary investigation by the Garda Síochána (under section 94 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005)

These are conducted by senior Garda officers, in line the Garda Síochána (Discipline) Regulations 2007. They can be supervised or unsupervised by a GSOC investigator, depending on the seriousness of the allegation.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887708#Comment_118887708

why don't you show us the pics...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887674#Comment_118887674

That is not giving their number

You really don't need to quote the OASA for me 😂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887654#Comment_118887654

The station may not know!

They could be gardai from anywhere, any unit.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887859#Comment_118887859

I thought you may not know... i think of name and number as being pretty much the same... i think they wear the numbers...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887937#Comment_118887937

Gardai in uniform have district numbers on their shoulders.

Plain clothes need to identify themselves, no requirement to give any number.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887937#Comment_118887937

I'm sure they know the requirements of their own job. I'm mystified by this idea some have that the gardai are out to get them. The most recent interaction I had with them concerned a complaint from a neighbour. We had a chat and they realised the complaint was nonsense so went on their way. They were pleasant throughout and I was nearly convinced they were human.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887975#Comment_118887975

I am sure they do know what the are MEANT to do but that is not the same as doing. The last iteration I had with the gardai was a letter saying they thoroughly investigate the issue and were not going any further. They spelt my name incorrectly on the letter. Prior to that no iteration with the gardai has ever been helpful. The seem to spend more time explaining why they couldn't be bothered than actually doing anything is my experience.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118888185#Comment_118888185

and you got from that to thinking that if you go down to a garda station they will investigate you for other crimes?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118888209#Comment_118888209

You have your experiences I have mine. You seem to be missing they already misbehaved towards me if it was them.

Shield

Feel free to ask in Emergency Services. We have lots of serving AGS members in there who may be able to provide more information.

https://www.boards.ie/categories/emergency-services

Peintre Celebre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887547#Comment_118887547

Ray sounds like you've an issue with the guards anyway so the answers you get won't change your mind.

If the property is broken up into flats they don't need a warrant to access the common areas. Unless it is a private home that has some sort of flat split inside it? Which is extremely rare and I'm assuming isn't here

Someone else has already shown you the legislation that plain clothes members have to show their identification when asked. They did this as admitted by you but you're still unsure. That's fine then go down and ask to see a sergeant and just ask can he clarify are they guards and explain what happened. This nonsense about you being afraid to go down and the guards turning it on you etc is like something out of some movie. Not real life.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892247#Comment_118892247

One of two flashed a badge and refused to let me read it or name themselves. If you think that is identifying themselves you have a different view to me. I very much doubt gardai have the right to come through a door without permission, it was just by chance it was unlocked. A hall between two flats in a converted house is not a common area anybody can enter unless with a key or the door was unlocked. Not like walking into a apartment block shared area.

I would think gardai acting like thugs and refusing to identify themselves is out of a movie but no it is reality. You seem to be missing they have already acted inappropriately

Common thugs 🙄

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892247#Comment_118892247

first two lines seem to be the most relevant and correct point being made.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895675#Comment_118895675

You think gardai can enter private property without permission that is not open to the public? They did not know it was a common area or not. If I don't trust the gardai that is due to personal experiences with them. You are victim blaming because most likely you are one given your user name. Can you defend them not identifying themselves properly?

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899050#Comment_118899050

youve had your q2uestions" answered here already , not sure this is the correct forum for your anti garda rants ray , try afterhours or something

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899968#Comment_118899968

What is anti gardai for pointing out them doing something illegal? Defending them and saying they did nothing wrong is your issue not mine. Somebody said maybe it wasn't illegal to enter a shared area not say it is or not illegal. Not identifying themselves is illegal. Why would you defend them and say the question has been answered?

If you are so sure you can point to the law where gardai can enter private property without permission.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/14/section/6/enacted/en/html

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905928#Comment_118905928

Not identifying themselves is not illegal. It MAY be a breach of the garda code of conduct but it is not illegal

GM228

Lots of misinformation in this thread.

It is not illegal, nor unlawful for a member of the Gardaí to fail to identify themselves.

The Garda Code requires identification to be made, however it is just a code, not law, and even if it was they have a common law power of discretion to use it or not, also there are limited circumstances where Gardaí are required to identify themselves under statute as opposed to the code when exercising certain powers when not in uniform, it is not absolute, however as I already mentioned Gardaí have a time immemorial common law power of discretion which applies to any provisions concerning their prosecutorial and investigatory functions weather they be just a code, under statute or common law.

With regards to entering private property, Gardaí can have an implied common law right of entry to private property provided they observe Article 40.5 of the Constitution (i.e do not violate the dwelling itself with force), this was confirmed in the prominent DPP vs Forbes [1994] 2 I.R. 542 Supreme Court case, there are a few exceptions where the Article 40.5 provisions will not apply where provided for by statute (such as S6 of the Criminal Law Act 1997 or S7 of the Road Traffic Act 2010 for example) or under common law exemptions (for example Gardaí acting in good faith can forcibly enter a dwelling without warrant when they reasonably believe to do so was "in fulfilment of the obligation that devolves on all citizens of the state", in other words to protect someone against serious crimes or the threat to life and lime).

There is no one case fits all to determine if entering a premises without a warrant was lawful, each case will depend on the individual circumstances.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905928#Comment_118905928

nothing illegal even in your version of the story, you ve been told that and you just want to vent your anti police hatred ray

try after hours pal

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906378#Comment_118906378

Well ok they broke their code of conduct for sure

None of the reasons to enter the property there are exceptions that can be applied.

Bad behavior on there part no matter what way you spin it.

@mikethecop I hope you don't work in any law enforcement role as you have issues