Where do Irish professional rugby players come from?

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713680#Comment_120713680

No I would regard elitism as picking an inferior player from an “elite” background over a better player from a less salubrious background out of prejudice etc

I was speaking to the “Kilkenny effect” if you will as at these schools where the pupils are steeped in it from a young age and there’s a culture and years of experience of involvement in rugby imbued in the school and in the families of the pupils. That’s nothing to do with the school being fee paying or rugby, could be any sport. Many coaches e.g Peter Smyth in Blackrock who was v successful coach was a former pupil and teacher in the school as are many of the coaches in these schools.

I would contend those factors are more important in fostering rugby development. You don’t get that kind of success from facilities alone (though facilities help they’re not the be all and end all as I said above).

Don’t really see how there’s anything dissonant in that

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713856#Comment_120713856

Because ive spent enough time in these schools in different capacities. They simply dont. Many of these schools also have various other interests and pick for them. Yes with a random selection and you put in 3/4 training sessions a week, combined with a match a week and the extra work they put in video reviews,

Are you really suggesting if you got 200 kids in a school in Kilkenny. Gave them near what Michaels or whoever are doing that they wouldnt produce similar levels. It isnt genetics

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713856#Comment_120713856

The schools have fairly clearly laid down entry acceptance criteria and formula for how they admit people.

Your overarching thesis about the schools trawling the Irish countryside rounding up talented young guys is ignoring the fact that the majority of the students are still from the very near locality to the school - guys like James Ryan, Hugo Keenan, Garry Ringrose, the Byrne brothers, the Kelleher brothers, Rory O'Loughlin, Ross Molony, Joe McCarthy etc - these guys are all from Sandymount / Ballsbridge / Booterstown / Blackrock.

Blackrock has the boarding school element as well - and definitely there was an element of bringing in talent with some of the guys who come in for senior cycle like Carbery, Loughman, Conor Oliver or Dave Heffernan, but even still a lot of boarders like Caelan Doris are going there because his father went there, not because he showed a lot of talent when he was 12 or 13.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713887#Comment_120713887

Because there's nothing elite about being from Kilkenny! When the upper echelons of a sport is pretty much confined to a structure where only the wealthy have access, it's a self-perpetuating situation where that subsection of the population has the access and means to play the game at a high level, interest and success are generated and passed down but stay largely within that small bubble.

Hurling/camogie in Kilkenny is accessible (almost mandatory) to pretty much all children. The history and success of the sport there, combined with a complete disinterest in gaelic football, the disappearance of LOI soccer and cricket and hockey being long since forgotten mean that everyone is steeped in the game, whatever their background.

And still, the top performing underage hurling teams are still those from elitist schools like Kieran's college.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713887#Comment_120713887

We will have to agree to differ so

I'm not a fantasist btw, I don't have a problem with it, it's the way it has and always has been in many sports and probably always will be

You are an elite in some sense of the word if you attend Blackrock or Pres or Christians or Clongowes etc unless you are comparing that cohort to another fee paying private school cohort...you get better connections, better facilities, better resources etc etc that a larger cohort doesn't and that's true of a lot of other sports too...your chances are simply better, you have the opportunity to develop quicker and the opportunity to be in the right place at the right time etc than someone like I was mullocking away in a CBS in the arsehole of nowhere....I'm not saying I could have been a contender (in fact it's probably fair to say I definitely wouldn't have been) but I would have had a greater chance but actual talented players in the same cohort as me would have had their chances greatly increased.

Of course it's elitism , again no problem with it, that's the way of the world....

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712940#Comment_120712940

They pick soccer players in some places at 8 years old. American schools will recruit basketball players as young as 12/13. MLB teams have handshake deals for millions of dollars with teenagers in the dominican as young as 13.

I’d be very surprised if the DOR at st michaels didn’t have a list of the best 12/13 year olds who are likely to go to a private school.

It wouldn’t have to be envelopes of cash or anything. Organize a camp, send out invites, show them the facilities, the nutrition program, the pictures of guys who are now pros.

I’m not saying that happens but otherwise it does seem weird that all these guys just happen to be at this school. Coincidences do happen, don’t get me wrong, but still.

sydthebeat

You're coming at it backwards.

The students / parents target the schools, not the other way round.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715241#Comment_120715241

I could see that as the case now.

But as people said St Michaels are a bit of an upstart. Why did the first generation of guys go there?

Also, im not trying to say this like its nefarious. I feel like this is acceptable to do.

ersatz

We are getting into a nature/nurture argument here. People tend to overestimate the role of genetics in this stuff. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely a component to athletic success, but environment, habit and confidence are easily as decisive. I've seen it numerous times in coaching that the kid with absolutely zero skill, who can't casually kick a ball at 6 or 7 years old, can become a standout player ten years later. In a different world Doris is just a lanky awkward kid and the guy next door who gave up sport at 12 is a world cup winner. The difference is often structure and a kid being given guard rails to operate within.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715322#Comment_120715322

Does that apply to all sports equally for you or is there some sort of sliding scale?

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715345#Comment_120715345

i dunno how true it still is but it used to be the case in the NHL that the majority of Canadian players were born January - April. Age-grade hockey leagues in Canada are based on calendar year - at younger ages a year (or almost a year) can make a big physical difference - the 'older' players can stand out and get picked for rep teams - get better coaching etc, - develop more - become pro

im sure if someone were to look into it there would be similar trends found in other sports.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715345#Comment_120715345

Apart from the elite level rugby is still a sport that almost anyone can participate in, so its probably more the case with it than say sprinting or long distance running where there is a genetic entry level. But even there you'll see certain factors that transcend genetics. Currently East Africans dominate middle distance running and though there are some genetics that are notable they don't explain why this is happening. A lot of ideas are currently focussed on stuff like 'mindset'. Scandinavians were utterly dominant in these distances in the early 20th century and they've fallen off. IN East Africa walking dozens of km pw helps but again isn't decisive. I guess the point is that no one factor can explain why there is a sometimes noticeable viral culture of sporting success that is local. Why does Kilkenny so often dominate in hurling when the people there are no different from their neighbours? There's more than genetics to it.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715412#Comment_120715412

Yea, i’d definitely agree with that.

I think there are sports that are ‘skills’ sport where basically reps from a very early age in a good environment are extremely important. Hurling is firmly in that camp.

I’m not sure on rugby but i think i’d lean more genetics.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715412#Comment_120715412

Yea, more physically advanced coordinated kids (because they are older) get more coaching and it snowballs.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715222#Comment_120715222

Soccer is quite different to rugby yjough. I would be very surprised any schools DOR has any list of kids from kids who've just finished playing their last year of mini rugby/first year of 15 a side full pitch rugby.

They do run camps but thats for incoming first years those already enrolled in the school.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715247#Comment_120715247

Skehan talked about it in an article a few years back. as a school they looked at their coaching standards upskilled as a whole school. put in structures and then when players progressed to pro rugby they filtered a lot of what they were learning in that environment back to the school and it kept the numbers coming through to the pro game

Tim Robbins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713899#Comment_120713899

Yes. I think they have a better gene pool for it (really don't like the terminology but can't see what other term can be used).

I am open to correction if you have better stat's. But nearly all those big rugby schools have at least 6 lads 6ft4 or taller.

So that's 4 percent - if they have 150 in the year. If we look that statistical distribution for height - only 1% of the US population (so guessing similar for us) is that height.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/585718168419c246cf6f204e/t/5ab7e2de70a6adbbb6bcf676/1522000606378/STATISTICS%2B-Dimensions%2B-%2B3-19-18%2B%281%29.pdf

Tim Robbins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713952#Comment_120713952

Hmm... the school may be the lesser influence than the parents. I know parents who think their kid is suited rugby and pay the extra cash to go private. In my own case, my son prefers other sports so I thought it may not be worth the squeeze and the commute.

However, if I did think he had an interest in rugby I would have more inclined to send him that direction (if he wanted to go).

In your list there you left out that Carberry, Doris came a long way to play for rock. Those lads could have also gone to plenty of other schools nearby.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718122#Comment_120718122

Doris didn’t go to play rugby, pretty sure he has family connections to the school, his father or whatever

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718122#Comment_120718122

In your list there you left out that Carberry, Doris came a long way to play for rock. Those lads could have also gone to plenty of other schools nearby.

if your goal is pro rugby, you try to put yourself in the best location to be seen.

This worked for Joey Carberry by going to blackrock.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718087#Comment_120718087

You really think these schools have "a better gene pool"?!

What about the literally thousands of big lads all over the country playing GAA?

Also, I don't know what schools matches you're watching. By my count, there are only 8 or 9 lads in the senior Leinster squad over 6ft 4; there definitely aren't whole hosts of schools squads with 6+ lads in their 23 man squads over that height.

Tim Robbins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718383#Comment_120718383

Well your anecdotal evidence is your's and mine is mine. What would it take for you to change your mind?

They wouldn't have 6 lads in their 23 man squads that height. Maybe 3. However if you go to the B or C team for some these schools you see another 2 or 3.

Tim Robbins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718188#Comment_120718188

Absolutely.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718666#Comment_120718666

I think you're adding up 1 + 1 and getting 9 here; firstly, you're comparing a sample set of males aged 16-19 versus the entire US population, which obviously is including a sizable cohort where you wouldn't expect to have as many people over 6ft never mind 6ft 4.

If you compared to American boys of high school age it would be a more meaningful stat.

I think you're ignoring a key point about these schools and that's that the overwhelming majority of their attendees are from suburbs around where the schools are. It's not like they're running a sweep of the country rounding up tall lads. Taking your point about the better "gene pool" of these schools to a logical conclusion would mean places like Dublin 4 / South County Dublin must have a disproportionate amount of very tall people.

Tim Robbins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718733#Comment_120718733

Fine, get better stats.

"Taking your point about the better "gene pool" of these schools to a logical conclusion would mean places like Dublin 4 / South County Dublin must have a disproportionate amount of very tall people." --> people who are more interested in rugby who might be more athletic are more likely to go to Michael's or Rock whereas those who aren't are more likely to go to another option, who knows Marion, Newpark or some Gaelscoil. This could be driven by parents and / or the school. Joey came from Athy to Rock for Rugby reasons not to sing in the choir. The school may not sit down and say do you think this 12 year old would make a good number 8, but if you look at the promotional material for those schools and the main rugby schools, half the promo is about rugby. So the school may not be sending explictly selecting but they are indirectly influencing parent choices.

Another thing they do is tell parents rugby is compulsory in 1st year. So if a parent has an issue with rugby (which a lot do) they'll go somewhere else.

Result: the gene pool has more potential decent rugby players in it compared to a similar sample set of children the same age which has none of these skews.

Michael's / Blackrock are producing a huge number of professional rugby player's. 7 more to the academy this year. The coaching is excellent but excellent coaching isn't enough to be a professional. You need some decent genes as well.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718995#Comment_120718995

but if you look at the promotional material for those schools and the main rugby schools, half the promo is about rugby.

Well, speaking as someone who went to Rock (but sadly isn't over 6ft 4) I can tell you this definitively isn't the case.

It's very difficult to refute your gene pool arguments, because they're entirely speculative, and it's hard to prove a negative, but it is possibly the most bizarre theory I've heard so far for the success of Michaels and Rock in producing pro rugby players.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718995#Comment_120718995

Your argument about genes is bollox. to add to fresh to deaths point you are adding 1+1 and getting 9 again here.

Yes rugby is a key promotional tool as its the principal sport for their students/past pupils and its the key focus sport for many of the schools. though hockey will be equal or close to in many of the COI schools.

rugby isnt compulsory in all schools and even then if someone really doesnt want to play. they dont but theyve to do something else.

You are going on a lot about genes which isnt really true. these schools get more contact hours for coaching of players than elsewhere and the quality of coaching is top class. sure tony smeeth trinitys AIL coach and a former USA coach etc etc etc is coach of blackrock/willow park 1st years.

conquestscarer

Genetics are clearly the largest part in factoring if a player can go pro or not. For example, to be a pro Tighthead Prop you'd struggle to go pro under 6 feet tall. Combine that and needing to weigh about 125Kg you'd also need to have the genes to keep on serious size without getting injured and still be able to run around at a high level. That is without a doubt pure genetics. Same Thing with Second Rows, you would struggle to find a second row under 6'4 (1.6% of the population) in pro rugby at the moment.

If you also ever played against a future pro rugby player you can tell straight away that they're genetically better at playing sports. I remember coming up against Scott Penny when he was 15 and he was a different breed of player and straight away knew he was going pro.

I also have experience of playing with someone who is currently a professional rugby player. He didn't work harder than most people on the team but he was just stronger and could run longer with very little effort. He hasn't been a huge success at the pro level but has played URC games and Champions cup games.

That said Blackrock and Michaels clearly have the best culture and coaches that consistently give the players the tools to make it to the next level. Those schools also have huge year groups of boys who spur each other on to go to the gym and play Rugby together. That said we are clearly not making the most of all our rugby talent across of Leinster and Probably Ireland. I know personally I played with better players than the lads who made Leinster because they were in the Blackrock/Michaels teams, that said none of them were going to be future pros and the top Blackrock/Michaels lads were.

ulsteru20s

This all makes it more clear to me is that the only way to compete with leinster as another province is to lean HEAVILY into selecting athletes over more finished products when it comes to academy inclusion.

They won’t be ready as quickly obviously.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719554#Comment_120719554

But that follows widening the playing base as much as possible and keeping rules around player movement into schools. so you can have a strong club player who could be the glue to a team staying together and then you have provincial/regional coaches through provincial squads and the new centres of excellence for the player to get the extra high level training needed.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719554#Comment_120719554

Or....

target that profile of leinster schools player just below the entrants for the leinster academy