Where do Irish professional rugby players come from?

shaungil

Fair play to you for putting it together. Always will be difficult to get exact with guys doing LC in private school.

Would also be interested in AIL guys who did not come through the pathways, development squads or provincial u18's.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118888494#Comment_118888494

According to the Irish Examiner 8% of male students attend private secondary school (2020 - link below)

So that's an over-representation of private schools of 6.5 times in the 227 players that you looked at (6.5 x 8% = 52%)

Now you can say oh there are some transfers in there etc but equally there are more private school entrants from the overseas contingent as you also say.

Either way the picture shows low social mobility to the professional ranks in Rugby Union in Ireland.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40034693.html

TRC10

Other than Eddie O'Sullivan 10 years ago, has anyone ever actually called it "the people's game"?

I think all rugby fans are well aware that it isn't "the peoples game". I have no interest in trying to force any narrative that it's up there with GAA and Soccer culturally. Of course it's not. I just like Rugby.

I'm also a big football fan and support the Irish football team and watch all the games, but I don't complain about the lack of lads from South Dublin on the team.

I think the big difference between schools rugby and club rugby is the coaching. I played youth rugby from u13s to u18s with my club, as well as JCT and SCT in my school, and the guys I played with in the club (who were absolutely not well-to-do, upper-middle class) were just as talented athletes and footballers. The problem was, the disparity in coaching was night and day. Private schools hire dedicated, quality rugby coaches (Andy Skehan in Michaels, Peter Smyth in Blackrock, Patrick Collins in Wesley, Ben Armstrong in Gerards etc), whereas most club coaches are volunteer parents. Hence, unless some lad has pure world class, un-coachable talent like S.O'B or Furlong, the club players were doomed to not make it. Not to mention the S&C coaching they get in schools.

OldRio

Its the envy of most other countries. Fantastic coaching at an early age. I'm not sure why people moan.

*envy*

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892058#Comment_118892058

I don't know that the Club player is "doomed not to make it" but they are certainly behind the curve generally speaking due to a gap in the quantity and quality of coaching they are receiving, the quantity being the major part of it.

A lot of clubs have excellent coaching structures in place , but they are only getting access to the Players for a few hours a week whereas the schools have much more time with them , it's that volume gap that is the biggest driver along with the S&C as you rightly point out.

The Provinces have recognised this and they start the development squads a year earlier for club players compared to Schools to help close that gap.

Club based prospects are brought into Development squads during the summer after U15's whereas the Schools development squads don't start until after JCT which is U16.

The Guru 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892503#Comment_118892503

I think looking at those figures you'd have to be sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich not to come to the conclusion that it is much easier for rich kids to make it as professional rugby players.

And while the system we currently have is clearly producing good players surely this top class coaching shouldn't be restricted to just the children of rich parents?

Firstly that is unfair on the children in question that could be equally as dedicated and talented as Fiachra from South Dublin but because Fiachra's parents can afford Blackrock College he's the one that'll end up making it.

Secondly even if that slightly moral issue doesn't bother you and you look at it from a purely cold player production viewpoint there must be some amount of untapped talent out there. Guys that play club rugby all over the country but never receive the top class, intense coaching the rich kids do. From the model that's in place at the moment you are essentially reducing our player pool down by about 95%. Surely that's not efficient.

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892652#Comment_118892652

IMHO you cannot restrict what a parent does with their own disposable income. If they want to privately educate their child, let them at it. This money is also paying for the coaching of Rugby.

Of course the investment in all coaching for underage players needs to improve. They are many posters on this very thread with more expertise on this matter than me on this thread.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892652#Comment_118892652

Here's the thing though.

Rugby is not played in the vast majority of schools to begin with and then even in the schools that do play it , it's not always the Number 1 sport for that school

A Boarding school (by it's very nature , private and exclusive) automatically has more opportunity to coach a player than a regular day school , who in turn have much more opportunity than a local club.

Your points about spreading the coaching etc. etc. are absolutely valid - But even if the IRFU funded Professional coaches in every club and school across the country it still doesn't solve the issue of access and coaching time.

The Provinces are doing their best , setting up the regional centres of excellence in places like Fethard and the like , but in practical terms there's only so much they can do.

As an aside , are there any boarding schools where Soccer or GAA are the dominant sport and what's their output to the Top level like?

Dubinusa

My school wass a G.A.A school. A Christian brothers school. I knew nobody who played rugby. Even our football team was secondary to G.A.A. The school produced a few all Ireland winning players and plenty of lads that made the Dublin squad.

I've no doubt that some of these boys could have played rugby and been very good. My commerce teacher at the time invited myself and others to visit Clontarf rugby club. Unfortunately, we did not. A grave error for me, imo. The lad ahead of me in my position for the gaelic football team would go on to play for Dublin for years and win an all Ireland.

I have no clue as to why there was no rugby at my school! The perception was that it was elitist and for snobs. That school to this day has no rugby team! So in short, I feel that the catchment pool in Dublin is relatively small. Most schools, to my knowledge don't have rugby on offer and lads will play football or G.A.A at their local club as well.

I think the coaching at the schools level in certain schools is top quality. Blackrock obviously, and St Michaels. The set ups are professional like and the players get the training and time to develop. I'd like to see clubs appear all over the city and youngsters play rugby. But, as it's perceived as snobby and elitist, I think it's unlikely. I daresay there's not many at Blackrock from Dublin 1 postcode? The IRFU do a good job with summer camps etc and I reckon there should be some kind of camps held at non traditional schools and areas.

Surely the union could approach the schools and ask if they can bring in some coaches and players and have a camp on a weekend? It would be affordable and who knows, perhaps rugby will grow in these areas.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892058#Comment_118892058

Top club players are identified at u-15 level and brought into development pathways. They have S&C, nutritional advice and coaching from Leinster coaches. They may not have the same level of access as the schools but they are well looked after in terms of development.

basill

I presume the Irish private schools actively recruit talent and offer free or discounted fees like in other countries? If so it will muddy the waters on the great wealth debate.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892652#Comment_118892652

Im not disagreeing with this point but is it not also the case that public schools with excellent GAA programs have much more access to players than clubs do, so is there a similar gap in players coming from these schools relative to club players?

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896134#Comment_118896134

They absolutely do. Decent club players will be offered scholarships etc. to move and play for the top schools.

Joey Carbery is a high profile example , he was in school in Athy but moved to Blackrock for the Snr Cycle.

There are some rules in place to stop Schools poaching from each other - I believe the current rules are that if a player moves from one Rugby school to another they cannot play Cup rugby for 18 months.

The school can apply for an exception and most are given, but it's there to stop the rampant poaching that used to go on previously.

Yes that rule closed down a lot of those sort of situations.

If it still goes on I don't think that it would be that significant.

You'd see the same names following through from junior cup to senior cup teams.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892828#Comment_118892828

They aren't really doing their best though. They are paying enough lip service to it to be seen to do something and not a lot more. Some camps here, some camps there, the odd visit from a coach to a lower tier school etc.

Nothing serious will ever be done that could possibly upset the schools rugby apple cart.

That said, even if the IRFU funded coaches for every school they wouldn't be able to compete with the money flowing into the big Dublin schools for example.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118894857#Comment_118894857

I went to one of those rugby schools a long time ago and at the time we had no GAA and soccer was an after thought. At the time rugby was a mandatory part of the curriculum, you had to play until U14. It was stupidly anachronistic and thankfully that school has GAA today (and a few Dublin all Ireland winners) but it's still a rugby powerhouse. At the time the coaches were all teachers, a couple of whom knew what they were doing, but the main emphasis as far as most kids went was an exposure to muscular Christianity and to the mud.

Last year I put one of my kids into another school in Dublin for 6 months that we spent back in Ireland (from the US). He is rugby mad but because of Covid not much rugby was going on. But a few the coaches from a couple of these schools set up an informal training run in for kids interested in a touch run around and skills session 3 times a week. The coaches were mostly Kiwis who were coaching schools and playing club rugby, fellas who knew what they were doing. They were also plugged in enough that various Leinster and Ireland players showed up for a runaround with the kids a couple of times.

Some of the coaching my lad has been exposed to in the US has been pretty good, guys who played to a fairly high level in NZ/SA who live around here, and another few who've played on the US team, the rest are a bunch of amateurs like myself who know some drills, skills and tactics and know something about team spirit, inclusivity and rugby culture, but we aren't winning any national championships. My son felt that the coaching he got in Ireland from these schools coaches was just a much higher level entirely than what he's exposed to here. No comparison eventhough some of the coaches here are genuinely pretty good.

This is a huge difference, the fact that schools are recruiting internationally while clubs are relying on local volunteers, some of whom are great but most are probably enthusiastic amateurs like most of us.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896304#Comment_118896304

Very different though and kids play clubs and schools together. this is slightly helped by GAA being summer sport but there is no real distinction. When you see inter county players they will be far more identifiable by their club then whatever school they went to

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896514#Comment_118896514

They could be doing more for clubs certainly.

The majority of the Provincial development officers work M-F Daytime ,which effectively means the Clubs never get to see them as all clubs train in the evenings and weekends.

So those guys spend most of their time in schools , now they are going out to lower tier schools and holding events in non-traditional locations etc. etc. but for the most part the Clubs get very little direct support in terms of hands on coaching.

There are training courses held for coaches to attend which can be quite good , but again it's the lack of active visits to clubs when they are training/playing to provide feedback and guidance that is the biggest gap in helping Clubs develop their structures

However , lots of clubs have very good structures in place with good quality coaches with all the right kinds of experience and coaching qualifications but they are always going to be hamstrung by a simple lack of access/time with the players to impart the knowledge.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885031#Comment_118885031

Munster would be much better off investing in coaching in some of the larger public schools. Of course the clubs will produce the odd spectacular talent and have a role in player development between the academy and senior team but they do not reliably produce players. Look at what Bandon Grammar have added to Munster since they made the leap to be a serious senior cup team. Instead of putting a couple of hundred thousand into a journeyman South African they should be developing proper coaching in schools in Waterford and Kerry so that they can act as a magnet for the region the same way Bandon did in West Cork. There are also large schools around Cork City that are underfunded and don’t have a major interest in any other sport that would jump at Munster funded coaching.

Fudged

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892652#Comment_118892652

Honestly, I dont know where to start with your post so filled with assumptions and pre conceived notions based on falsehoods. I would need a barrister to rebut them all. Firstly, do you think you are worldly wise to be advising us of the shortcomings of people who pay for school fees. No doubt you went to a fee paying school- 90% on here did however they lie about it- why? 

Why should we be embarrassed for paying our way and working hard to get ahead of the next man? Is it unchristian or immoral? Under what law? Need I remind you of the parable of the talents in the gospel?  You’re probably too thick to assign credit to it. 

Secondly, you say it shouldn’t be restricted to children of rich parents? You are obviously some ape of some kind who can’t measure out the opposing view of an argument in rebuttal of your statement! For example, can it not be argued and I feel like a teacher spelling this out for you, that children of rich kids might in fact be more entitled for working harder? Sure financial reimbursement isn’t always parallel to work rate but it be a general rule that you are reimbursed for how hard you work. Socialist argue it isn’t the case! Are you siding with the “great” communist library of thought? And then dress it up as capitalist with the caveat of it being less “efficient”. Dont dress socialism up as being more efficient. It isn’t.  

You mock the south side you probably came from there. You mark your self deprecation as some sort of humility exempting you from being entitled or spoilt. You’re wrong - you’re even worse a hypocrite who denies his upbringing to gain political power. A total liar and likely crook

Fudged

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899160#Comment_118899160

Schools isnt the answer and wont be. Bandon Grammar is a fee paying school who could assist Bandon RFC and use a connection to get Regis Sonnes over to help coach them for a year. Non fee schools wont have resources to do that. Munster would be better off working on the clubs and the Munster u16/18 club competitions and the stronger clubs in that competition and getting more of those clubs especially the big county towns and getting them stronger and getting them to field at 20s level such as Tralee, Ennis, Waterford(through Park, Waterford City and WIT and any combo of those 3)

When you say proper coaching in schools you mean what? Bandon Grammar were only part of west cork and far from a magnet for the area as Clonakilty RFC and Skibb did and do a lot with nothing to do with the Grammar school.

The focus cant and shouldnt be schools when you have a clubs competition ripe for development and potential

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971283#Comment_118971283

There are only 4 home grown players in the squad who didn’t play senior cup vs 28 who did play in the Munster Senior Cup. For all the waffle about how great the clubs are the players are not coming through without a stint in schools rugby. In terms of Bandon acting as a magnet, Crowley is from Innishannon, Coombs from Skibb and Sweetnam is from Dunmanway. French is the only local product of the school to go onto Munster.

tommybrees

They come from there daddy's Balls

Zeugnis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896406#Comment_118896406

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896329#Comment_118896329

Can you link to the rule?

I know of a case this year at the top end of the Leinster schools competition. There must have been an exception, but I wonder how hard it is to get, of course one knows nothing about the specifics of individual sitiuations so one should be cautious about making judgments. But cue Paul Howard, because knowing how big a deal rugby is in the south Dublin prestige universe, you'd quickly end up in solicitor territory if families didn't get the outcome they want.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118972726#Comment_118972726

Kids do move but there is a committee/group that assess each case. all regulations are listed in games master handbook which is listed with all other regulations on this link https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/domestic-rugby/club-documents/

Zeugnis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118972924#Comment_118972924

Thanks for that.

To return to the broader subject: there is no question in my mind that rugby is a predominantly but not exclusively middle class sport in Leinster, top loaded by the private schools in south Dublin. some new clubs have been founded to try and expand the playing base, for example in Tallaght. What other clubs are in a position to attract players in the growing working class suburbs? Clondalkin, I guess. Don't know what the playing population looks like in clubs like Coolmine and Unidare. Further north, I know that there was plans to expand the game in Swords, and Balbriggan had a club even before it's phenomonal population growth during the boom.

I'm honestly ignorant of what is happening in these clubs beyond some basic knowledge about Tallaght RFC. Does anyone have any first hand experience? And does anyone have any concrete suggestions as to what could additionally be done in Leinster that could make a difference?

There's an irony in this by the way, given the GAA's massive success in expanding its player base in Dublin, including among groups who traditionally have played only rugby. It's not uncommon for boys playing SCT to now also play for their GAA club and represent Dublin (and in some cases Kildare or Meath), and some leave rugby after school to concentrate on football. Testimony, obviously, to the excellent structures created by Dublin GAA and a changed perception of the game, helped probably by the extraordinary success of the 2011-2020 period.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973428#Comment_118973428

I dont think it is in Leinster as a whole. if you look at the clubs, youth competitions. Many cup finals were in Donnybrook over the weekend and a lot more are next weekend and the kids playing in these will be overwhelmingly not be middle class

Theres a good strong club in Clondalkin and theyve plenty underage teams playing. they had an 18s side competing in a leinster schools-youths division 1 final against Lansdowne recently for example

Leinster have development officers going into local schools, assisting getting tag played, getting teams into schools development cups. anne mcinerney cup for example. they then try get as many as interested into clubs to play.

stephen_n

Maybe if the schools stopped strangling the clubs and preventing a connected development pathway. It would benefit the game as a whole.

Xterminator

The original premise appears to have missed that most schools don't play rugby. Its not a choice.

While it is obvious more rugby playing kids come from fee paying schools, it is because most schools don't offer rugby to their students. I would hazard a guess that 32% coming from public schools is an overrepresentation of the number who get a chance to play by playing population.