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Picard 2x04 - 'Watcher' ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** }

  • 24-03-2022 10:32am
    Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭

    Picard 2x04 - 'Watcher' ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** }

    Warning: This thread will contain spoilers for the episode. Spoiler tags will not be used, so if you don't want to be spoiled read no further.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick

    Going to have to give that a second watch. Unfortunately I spent a large part of the episode wondering if they had ever watched Times Arrow. I think I can rationalise it away with the idea that because the way the future is going to the Confederation, Times Arrow never happened. However, that entire isssue could be mitigated against if they had just left out the scenes with Guinan. Seemed irrelevant and to be honest they added very little for me. Maybe there's something else for the character down the line, but between the apparent ignorance of TNG (though the season so far leads me to give them the benefit of the doubt) and the "new" Guinan it took me out of the episode.

    I do like that they've subtly improved Jurati, while still having the character make god awful stupid decisions. Q losing his powers is very interesting, want to see where that one is leading to. Also one of the other reasons I'm giving it a small pass for now on Times Arrow is the newspaper references Brynner from Past Tense in DS9, which is a nice nod (also subtle, which I liked, and not in your face like the Journey Home reference). I'm really intrigued as to who the Watcher is now. I had kind of expected it to be Guinan. Laris seems like a weird call, and it doesn't make much sense beyond getting Orla Brady in scene. I'm presuming it's some form of fakeout.

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy

    Ignoring Times Arrow is **** sloppy. It's inexcusable. It's clear they have a poor grasp of continuity but Christ can they not hire a Trek continuity nerd to sit in writing meetings and just point out **** that's clearly wrong.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭liamtech

    i thought it was decent actually

    My mind kept expecting Guinan to recognize Picard - until i realized that she wouldnt, as you stated. Times Arrow never occurred. It would have been a continuity gaff, HAD she recognized him (wibbly wobbly timey wimey) - i expect many fans will have stalled at this though - i pride myself on being able to follow trek, but i was in a very HEY HANG ON kinda mood - until i realized it (your getting old liamo, sit in the corner and shut up)

    And her ElAurian 'time sensitivity' thing certainly kicked in so - that was interesting - i wonder did the borg ASSIMILATE that ability from the ElAurians?

    I did enjoy it actually - and of course it was full of 'nods' to other trek - unnecessary, but less forced than Discovery

    I enjoyed it - definitely need a rewatch (such a pleasure to have a trek show that deserves/needs a rewatch!)

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭liamtech

    Of course there is now the question of the guy on the bus (Mr Voyage Home)? more timey wimey

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick

    Yeah. I enjoyed it, but I spent a good twenty minutes of the episode getting annoyed at the Times Arrow thing. I think that it's wibbly wobbly time stuff (in the manner of Cause and Affect), and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt once I worked out my solution. Though it needs to be addressed at some point or else it is just lazy writing. Based on these four episodes I do think they are aware of the canon. However, it was still a rather annoying distraction during an otherwise decent episode.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭liamtech

    no honestly - i thought so too - but in this timeline - the future from where they came - there was no times arrow

    everyone is gonna make this mistake btw - i did too -

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭liamtech

    I would like them to mention it - but suspect they wont

    I expect someone online will do a drawing of this temporal issue - but in effect she cannot know picard. Times arrow cannot have happened - the 24th century that it happened in - is gone

    Which could also explain why Guinan is leaving

    She never met Picard in the 19th, and therefore has no knowledge that things WILL improve

    It makes perfect sense tbh

    MR VOYAGE HOME is the Gaff actually - but i dont view that as anything but a nod - plus maybe TVH happened in some warped fashion

    Anyway i expect the penny will drop with some -

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick

    Actually I just saw that the Voyage Home guy was played by the same guy in this episode, which is nice! So not so much as a gaff as a nod I think. Still didn't like it though.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick

    Also, didn't mention in my first comment, "Why does the past hurt so much?". I love Rios this season.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭liamtech

    Iv literally just got off the phone to my mate - his immediate reaction. AH COME ON SHE SHOULD KNOW PICARD FROM THE MARK TWAIN EPISODE

    LMFAO - once i explained it to him - slightly bemused embarrassment lol

    I expect about 10 YT arguments before the end of the day - everyone, is gonna react weirdly to it. its seems like the MOTHER of all continuity gaffs lol

    Makes me love the trek community, we are so passionate! lol

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick

    I was about to message a mate just there to tell him to ignore the Times Arrow thing, it makes sense when you think about it.

    And yeah, the youtube Trek edgelords are going to have a field day with it I think.

    Just related to my Rios comment, isn't it great to have a Trek show that has a bit of a sense of humour again? It's one (of the many, many) things that Discovery sorely lacks compared to every other series.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭California Dreamer

    Would there be a reason why EP4 is not coming up for me?

  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭horgan_p

    Available to the US today, It'll be on Amazon Prime for UK And Ireland tomorrow.

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 3,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dr Bob

    Yeah the Times arrow thing bugged me , but I suppose , no federation, no Picard to go back in this timeline so it makes sense . There's enough effort put into continuity that I'd be suprised if they missed that . I'm surprised they didn't lampshade it by having Picard be surprised Guinen didn't remember him , then say " oh wait , that wouldn't have happened now the timelines changed".

    Bus Punk guy made me laugh , especially since most of the punks I knew were actually quite polite and would totally have acted the way he did now.

    Sanctuary Districts (from the Ds9 2024 Bell Riots episode ) got a mention which is nice.

    Damn , Laris isnt a Romulan Irish space mammy now .., but some sort of Q like!!!

  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭eadrom

    Punk on the bus remembered Spock but guns-out-Guinan can't remember Times Arrow?

    I've 15 minutes left in this episode and I'm struggling tbh.

  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭eadrom

    Why did it take Picard so long to tell Guinan his name? Is he not in a little bit of a hurry? It's Guinan ffs, what's he being coy for? And no explanation as to why that would possibly make a difference, except we need to move the plot along (after 20 minutes of worthless chatter).

    How the hell is she at "Number 10, Forward Avenue" in 2024. It was a cheap gag in the previous episode but we could assume she picked the bar after serving on the Enterprise. Now it's just stupid.

    I'm sick of being told how bad our world is (or will be in just 2 years) and how much better it will be. SHOW ME HOW IT WILL BE. And tell good stories there.

    And now Laris has been retconed into some magical creature. Ugh.

    Tbh, maybe I'm just not in the mood but that episode did nothing but annoy me.

    Post edited by eadrom on

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 25,021 CMod ✭✭✭✭Spear

    One future spoiler and speculated spoiler ahead

    Regarding "Laris"

    That's not Laris at all, that's someone quite different with a different name, Tallinn.

    And who the watchers seem to be:

    The same lot that Gary Seven worked for. They also had a title of supervisor, and use the same smoke cloud transporter.

  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭eadrom

    Was any of that mentioned in the episode? You should tag those as future-episode spoilers specifically. I'd have preferred not to look.

    Edit: thanks for the edit :)

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 25,021 CMod ✭✭✭✭Spear

    The first isn't stated on screen, but the name was already known as it's in the cast listings.

    The second is speculative though, and remains to be confirmed.

  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭eadrom

    And I don't like the new Queen. Was never fond of the idea of a Borg Queen anyway but this one in particular is like a panto villain in too much rubber-foam makeup.

    And why did she give coordinates to Guinan's bar if she isn't the watcher and that's not where he needed to be?

    Hopefully most of this is just me being in a grumpy mood.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 604 ✭✭✭a_squirrelman

    Happy enough with that episode, and enjoyed ilovesmybrick and liamtech's contributions above. I still have to warm up to Raffi though. And damn Stewart is probably too old for this, I though he was gonna break when that kid was dragging him.

  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭eadrom

    On the second point about the watchers -

    If it is Gary 7, we'll see does he remember a visit from Kirk and Spock. If not, then I guess the punk on the bus was just a (totally unnecessary) gaff.

    But even at that, the timeline hasn't changed yet so I'm still not too pleased about forgetting (to even mention) Time's Arrow.

    Wasn't it the case that they were able to basically see changes to newspaper headlines happen as they watched events unfold in City on the Edge of Forever? Bit pedantic but changes to the timeline don't happen until they happen, and they haven't happened yet.

    If the Guinan scenes had any actual merit then I might have been less annoyed. I bet she'll be back in some ass-kicking guns-blazing way in a future episode. Just like the Guinan we remember 🙄

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭corkie

    Star Trek Just Gave Fans The Best Character Return Ever

    This actually isn’t the first time Kirk R. Thatcher — who was an associate producer on Star Trek and wrote the song (“I Hate You”) you hear playing over his boom box — has reprised the role. He made a cameo, this time as “Punk on Street” in 2017’s Spider-Man: Homecoming.

    • Orla Brady as The Watcher ~~~ So maybe a different role than Laris?


    "He tasks me. He tasks me and I shall have him! I'll chase him round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give him up!" - Khan quoting Moby Dick (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan)

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭Slydice

    Well.. now this is a nice mystery. Looking forward to learning more about the watcher. Q's reaction 😁

    I swear the eyes effect seem familiar for some reason.

    Early on in the episode, I was like HOW COULD I HAVE KEPT THE BELL RIOTS SEPARATE... because I only got the hint when Picard mentioned Guinan watching over something and they wandered around the homeless street... then it clicked the hint from the previous episode and then I googled and sure enough.. 2024, the same year.

    Separately I'm kinda half keeping an eye out for any old lingering chronowerx logos or whatever. That'd be a funny nod.

    Talking about nods, I liked the sound workers using the Klingon cloaking noise for the ship.

    and those sound workers did a cool thing with the Borg voice coming in at different levels with an over-ear headset on.

    Aside from that..

    1... still a disappointing amount of assimilation going on

    2... waiting for Seven to stop driving take he hands of the wheel to turn to the camera, geasture with her hands and say in a deep meaningful way... "Family" 😁

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick

    @Slydice yeah, the eye thing is really bugging me. I think it was one of the cheap effects from TOS for some crew member that was taken over, but I can't place it. Possibly it's a recurring effect, but I think it's a direct reference.

  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭eadrom

    For time context, Jurati says that they landed on 12 April 2024. The Bell Riot's take place in September 2024 -

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,183 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard

    This was a bit of a mixed bag of an episode.

    Punk guy on bus - brilliant. The most unlikely character call back. Almost worthy of a Lower Decks gag.

    ICE detention did give a real good feel of how our society is sliding down a dytopian route.

    Borg scenes, good.

    Blind/ White eyed Watcher guider peeps, pretty cool.

    Car chase was muck

    Raffi is too annoying and intense.

    But holy fcuk how did they not know about Guinan from Times Arrow. That is a major mess up. Surely the actor themselves would have known unless there is another reveal later on. Real lack of basic trek knowledge there. A real black mark against the series. Unless there are time travel shenanigans where Gunian here is younger Gunian and travels back to Mark Twain times later in life.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,217 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly

    Thoroughly enjoyed that - like I was intensely watching it and hanging on every word spoken

    Loved the call back on the bus - very fitting I thought

    The Guinan bit annoyed me a little - could they have not got Whoopi to do it (the woman hasn't aged in 30 years in real life!)??? As for Times - I'm pretty sure the writers are savvy enough that they thought this through and on the current timeline trajectory it never happened and maybe when they fix it she remembers...?

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,480 ✭✭✭✭Varik

    If the current timeline is on a course for the alt version with no federation meaning no one time travelling back for Times arrow so she wouldn't have know him, then there was also no Picard and Guinan in the bar in the future chatting so Picard couldn't repeat her words to her.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,217 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly

    But Picard et al are outside of the timeline - Q plucked them out and plonked them in the new timeline as he created