Church of Ireland - dying a slow death?

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805138#Comment_120805138

Yes our population is growing, but without immigration, we'd have no growth at all and across many Christian countries there is no growth. I don't think a society that depends on immigration is healthy. Religion has a massive impact on willingness to have kids. Pretty much everywhere you look, whether it is EU countries or the US, being more religious tends to mean you tend to be fertile than your peers and the very religious have more kids than the slightly religious.

The cost of living discourages having kids but it is a secondary factor to worldview. The cost of living was far tougher years ago and people had far bigger family. The main factor is changed view of the world. The hard proof is that the very rich don't have huge families. They only have families that are slightly larger than middle earners.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805427#Comment_120805427

I think you'll find that, in the past in this country and in the developing world today, lack of widespread availability of birth control is the bigger influencer of high birth rates. High birth rates in these circumstances are also closely linked to high mortality rates. The countries with the highest birth rates are by and large the poorest countries. I would also dispute the need for increasing either local or world population sizes. Yes, we will have to deal with an ageing population in the coming years but that is inevitable for whichever generation sees stabilisation or decline of population and the worlds population cannot continue to grow unchecked forever.

If you take issue with immigration you should perhaps ask yourself why people immigrate in the first instance? In very many cases it is to escape a society that has grown to the degree where there are insufficient local resources to support the population.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120810856#Comment_120810856

Right but the availability of contraceptives have no explanatory power for intra country variation. If your theory ( from I can see) was correct, that family size is just about cost of living, that rich it would always be having the biggest families but it is not as simple as that.

I totally agree that we need to help with issues in developing countries but migration tends to be taken by the reactively better off in society to obtain a better life, but the lives they try to leave behind are nearly always superior to the the lives of their parents. If these countries had smaller populations, it would not 'solve immigration'. That is a very reactionary idea related to the Noble Savage concept, something along the lines of that everything was fine until populations grew. People are not immigrating to Europe because of shortage of rainforest or clean freshwater habitats. Everywhere, farming fields are far higher than decades ago. People live longer lives. They do so, because they want to live like us.

Hotblack Desiato

If you take issue with immigration you should perhaps ask yourself why people immigrate in the first instance? In very many cases it is to escape a society that has grown to the degree where there are insufficient local resources to support the population.

Escaping religious fundamentalism is a factor too...

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812410#Comment_120812410

I think there are a wide range of factors that affect family size, where tradition / religion is one, access to and education around family planning is another, and wealth is a third. For intra-country variations between wealthy and poorer countries, I suspect the biggest factor by far is education around, and access to, family planning. Gapminder is a fascinating tool here, for example have a look at variations in life expectancy against babies per woman for a variety of countries over time. We can clearly see as number of babies per women dropped in recent years in countries like India, life expectancy rises. The same can clearly be seen in Ireland from the 1900s onwards. Of course correlation is not causation and many of the deaths would relate to childbirth itself, but it seems clear that family planning is an essential part of becoming a healthy modern society.

I'd also disagree that the larger part of migration is for solely economic reasons, either now or in the past. Much is due to people being displaced by famine, war or natural disaster. This was as true of Ireland in the past during famine as it is in other countries such as Ukraine and Sudan today.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812710#Comment_120812710

Larger family size is certainly an insurance against death. If you have more child deaths, you have more babies to compensate. This can be a deliberate choice but also occur without any planning due to cession of breast feeding.

I think you meant to say smaller family sizes are feature of being healthy and modern (there was a typo in your text).

You say being displaced by famine, war or natural disaster is the main cause of emigration, but in the Irish case, the vast majority of emigration left outside the famine years (7 out of 8 million).

I am not sure if you are up to speed with the numbers. Demographics can badly very fast. For example, South Korea with its current TFR is modelled to lose 94% of its population in three generations. If Ireland's 2019 TFR ratio continues, we will see a halving of population, which barely has grown since 1990 anyway when we strip out immigration. We can have different definitions of healthy but halving, is not healthy. Extinction is not healthy... Modern secular society is in decay.

Peregrinus

It may be true that the population of Ireland "has barely grown since 1990 anyway when we strip out immigration". But why would we strip out immigration? Serious question. After all, if we strip out emigration, the population of Ireland would vastly, vastly bigger than it is today. But both of these are hypothetical models for fictional alternative histories. In the real world, the population of Ireland is what it actually is.

Hotblack Desiato

You say being displaced by famine, war or natural disaster is the main cause of emigration, but in the Irish case, the vast majority of emigration left outside the famine years (7 out of 8 million).

Well duh. The famine was devastating but only lasted a few years. Economic ruin with better opportunities easily accessible overseas lasted for well over 150 years.

65535

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457232#Comment_120457232

One of my daughters (RC) who was involved in Scouting with a few CoI friends wanted to attend the local CoI Secondary School - we applied - we were told in no uncertain way - we have a 'pecking order' here and RC is at the bottom of the list - in other words just like the English - you can be any religion or none but you can not be RC to play their games.

In fairness I guess it's because the overwhelming religion is RC and they feel that to keep themselves relevant they have to take all comers - except those of RC.

Many of our ancestors on branches of the family tree were CoE and in those times it was more 'up front' as to what religion you were.

I was thinking of joining the Quakers myself but it clashes with other work on Sunday morning.

I have in the past 'reached out' to organisations to join but was asked in many ways as to what religion I was.

In Edinburgh one time when on a course - one of the lecturers went out of his way to ask what football team I supported etc. in a bid to determine which religion I was - Once the CoI can leave that behind and get with the times it will thrive.

It's not as bad as it used to be - when in the Army in the '80's you'd know the Protestants because they were excused the mass parade....

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817137#Comment_120817137

Plus, the two are closely connected. One of the consequences of the famine was radical change to landholding and land use patterns, and that gave rise to a large class of younger sons, and of daughters who did not marry or who married younger sons, who were landless. They had to emigrate because the famine had destroyed a social and economic system which, previously, had afforded younger sons etc a place in the rural economy which provided at least subsistence. That's the reason emigration didn't stop when the famine stopped.

The distinction that you often see made between the victims of war, disaster or oppression on the one hand and "economic migrants" on the other is often an unrealistic, even spurious, one. Very often the victimhood that is caused by war, disaster or oppression manifests itself as dispossession, relegation to an economic underclass or economic exclusion.

smacl

I think you meant to say smaller family sizes are feature of being healthy and modern (there was a typo in your text).

Yep, typo which has been edited. My point was in relation to family planning rather than just family size.

I am not sure if you are up to speed with the numbers. Demographics can badly very fast. For example, South Korea with its current TFR is modelled to lose 94% of its population in three generations. If Ireland's 2019 TFR ratio continues, we will see a halving of population, which barely has grown since 1990 anyway when we strip out immigration. We can have different definitions of healthy but halving, is not healthy. Extinction is not healthy... Modern secular society is in decay

Not sure what your sources on Ireland's population are, from statistica we can see Irelands population in 1900 was ~3.2 million as opposed to ~5.1 million in 2023 and rising. You need to go to pre-famine Ireland to see larger population followed by the population collapse brought on by the famine. A more pertinent question perhaps is what is the optimal size (or population density) for an egalitarian technologically advanced society? What would your ideal population size for Ireland be for example? Is it reasonable for people to aspire to live in their own house which has a garden or are we better suited to apartment blocks?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817192#Comment_120817192

This is nonsense.

All schools have to have an enrolment policy and make it available online.

They will enrol pupils of any religion or none if there are places available. If they have more applicants than places then CoI followed by other 'reformed faiths' get priority.

My children attended a CoI primary (younger one has just finished), we're not CoI, and most of the kids there aren't either. If it was relying on CoI pupils it would have closed years ago.

looksee

One of my daughters (RC) who was involved in Scouting with a few CoI friends wanted to attend the local CoI Secondary School - we applied - we were told in no uncertain way - we have a 'pecking order' here and RC is at the bottom of the list - in other words just like the English - you can be any religion or none but you can not be RC to play their games.

A bit like when I offered to be a guide leader (I had the experience) for the local Catholic guides group in one village where I lived - they were really stuck for someone - and I was told 'no thanks, you are not a Catholic'.

Jellybaby_1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120818340#Comment_120818340

Faith based youth groups usually have an enrolment of some sort, and the applicant has to make a promise. Maybe at that time it was less enlightened than it is today. For instance, the Guides have changed the word 'God' to 'Faith' according to that person's beliefs.

65535

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120818298#Comment_120818298

'Non-sense' - indeed - tell that to my daughter who experienced discrimination because she was baptised a RC.

What is 'templated' online is not what is said face to face behind closed doors.

Hotblack Desiato

So you are saying the school did not follow its published admissions policy? Open and shut case at the WRC if so.

Ronald Binge Redux

My own Parish Group had a small influx after opening one of the Church buildings to visitors and having friendly and knowledgeable active members available to answer questions about history, etc.