Church of Ireland - dying a slow death?

the_pen_turner

i was talking to acustomer of mine during the week who has dealing with the local ish COI primery school. she told me that there is only one COI student there now and the rest are a bixed bag of diferent nationalities and religions. not looking good for it if there is only one student with the inteneded religion there

Guildenstern

When I lived in England, it was very common to come across Anglican folk who would travel miles and miles and passed tens of churches along the way, to get to that actual church that reflected as much as possible what they wanted. Whether it was high church Anglican, less so, a Woman Vicar, what they believed to be a more welcoming community, the actual service on offer, or indeed any other reason.

Catholics would just rock up to their nearest church building with still a very much it's your own parish mentality.

Not sure if that's just the Anglicans seeking out what they want, being more spiritually conscious. Fair enough but does that play into the vibe that the Anglican communion is too diverse? Could be answering my own question here. The RCs may be deemed as then too rigid?

Jellybaby_1

I'll kneel if my knees obey me!

looksee

lOL, I was thinking much the same, I can kneel, but I wouldn't want to get back up again in public!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457232#Comment_120457232

This school like every other National School (clue in the name there) is funded by taxpayers of every religion and none. If any church wants a school entirely to themselves then they can fund it entirely themselves.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460426#Comment_120460426

Exactly.

Its not the Tax Payers job to fund religious teaching.

Most people arent religious anymore anyway, so churches should really be funded primarily by their congregation, as a private entity.

I dont have a problem with minimal tax payers money going toward religious institutions, but it really should be limited amd minimal contribution.

the_pen_turner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460426#Comment_120460426

thats not what im saying at all. no one is saying those other kids are not welcomed . the point is that the area only has 1 kid of that age that is attanding the school. thats not a good sign for the parish if they are not having kids or putting them in the school that alignes with their religion

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460457#Comment_120460457

A parish can be an administrative boundary. It doesnt need to be linked to a religious faith.

If people in that administrative boundary are not practising a specfic religion, thats ok.

Would that not be the free choice of the people?

the_pen_turner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460468#Comment_120460468

im only using it as an examply of the numbers being down. thats a sign of 'dying a slow death'

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460456#Comment_120460456

That's grand insofar as it goes but state funding in this case is there to help minorities survive. Minorities always suffer and at danger of being eroded.

Try taking all funding off Roman Catholic schools and watch the howls. Try taking their doctrinal teaching out of the national school day to day teaching.

One of the reason we had partition of this island was 'Home Rule is Rome Rule' and thus it has come to pass for southern anglicans.

Packrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461320#Comment_120461320

With the greatest of respect to the forum I'm posting in, - this is the biggest load of horse sh1t I've read on boards in a long while.

Home Rule is Rome Rule was a slogan used by a small number of bigots who didn't want self-determination for irish people.

Stop trying to resurrect division which is long past you absolute ape.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460457#Comment_120460457

Well, put it this way - our local CoI primary now has a waiting list but it's the only co-ed, English language option in the area, quite a large suburb.

If it relied on CoI pupils it'd be closed by now, about 20 years ago it was struggling to stay open.

My youngest is finishing up in that school this year, neither of us ex-RC atheist parents were keen on either of the local single-sex RC schools run by orders with strong histories of child abuse... or the secondaries they feed into either.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463481#Comment_120463481

They weren't all that far wrong though really were they?

Women in the Irish Free State in 1922 had more rights than women in the Republic of Ireland in 1972.

Divorce, contraception, jobs for women... the rights which existed as part of the UK started to slowly evaporate under Cumann na nGaedheal rule, and Fianna Fail soon ensured the destruction of what was left - in accordance with RCC teaching.

It was only entry into the EEC which started the slow process of recognising women as equal citizens.

To this day we have constitutionally enshrined discrimination against non-Christians in the judiciary and presidency, and fully legalised discrimination against non-Roman Catholics in a large number of state jobs.

Edit: typos

beeker1

Don't worry little flock !

beeker1

Where two or more gather in my name !

Diminishing congregations are a reality in all faiths ! The Catholic Church has gotten a deserved good kicking and it will be the better for it , The COI too does itself no favours in alienating kids ! The God fearing DUP would carry no weight with protestant working class kids !

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463481#Comment_120463481

With the greatest of respect to the forum we're posting in - that's an egregious slur you're calling me! My cultural background is that of Southern Church of Ireland and I can tell you without any doubt in my mind at all, that there would be a strong sense that 'Home Rule is Rome Rule' came to pass in essence and that the Free State/ Republic became a Catholic state for a Catholic people. This is also tempered by a little resentment towards Northern Church of Ireland and other anglicans who chose to abandon their southern counterparts and run a Protestant state.

Re OP though, there is growth in some parishes with the influx of peoples from abroad.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463481#Comment_120463481

Mod: You've been infracted for personal abuse of another poster, also note that any swearing is prohibited on this forum. Please read and understand the charter before posting here again. Any feedback by PM or using the feedback thread only.

Drifter100

Yes I`m sorry to say it is a trend

There are 17 on my parish register, maybe 7/8 on a Sunday. Old spool type tape recorder to pay the hymns. Rector hurries through the service in 40 mins as he has 5 parishes to do on a Sunday

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463626#Comment_120463626

DUP members would overwhelmingly be Presbyterians though, not CoI.

It is said that some of the opposition Arlene Foster faced from within her own party stemmed from the fact that she is CoI.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464192#Comment_120464192

That's the future the RCC is staring into also.

It's not sustainable and sooner or later both are going to have to reduce the number of churches which have a service each Sunday. But that'll reduce attendance even further.

Madeleine Birchfield

Unfortunately, the Anglican world is currently undergoing a schism with 75% of Anglicans around the world no longer in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury after the General Synod in the Church of England voted for same-sex blessings in February, and as a result GAFCON (Global Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans) and GSFA (Global South Fellowship of Anglicans) came together in April to declare that the instruments of communion - the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Lambeth Conference, the Anglican Consultative Council, and the Primates' Meeting - to be beyond repair and no longer recognized as valid.

IMO it is likely the Church of Ireland is probably going to split into two different Anglican churches in the near future with the more conservative/evangelical types aligning with GAFCON and GSFA and the more liberal types aligning with Canterbury and the Church of England. Either that or if the Church of Ireland stays cohesive enough and maintains communion with Canterbury I could see GAFCON/GSFA launching a new Anglican church in Ireland in the same way they did the Anglican Network in Europe for England and continental Europe, peeling away the conservative evangelicals away from the Church of Ireland.

Peregrinus

The CofI is broad enough, and small enough, and aware of its smallness, to be in general strongly averse to schism and strongly committed to remaining a church in which diverse views can be accommodated. When the ordination of women was introduced there was an attempt by those opposed to launch a rival Anglican movement in Ireland which would not ordain women; it pretty much withered on the vine almost immediately.

I'm sceptical that a split over the (less ecclesially fundamental) issue of blessing same-sex marriages, should the Cof I decide to do that, would get off the ground. And it certainly won't get off the ground purely on the basis that the CofI in is communion with churches that do that.

homer911

There are diverse views, and then there is biblical teaching..

Many would say that it is ecclesially fundamental - you cannot bless what Biblical teaching views as sin

I would hope that there wouldn't be a split, but for many the issue is a line in the sand that should not be crossed. The problem is that you cant split a church down the aisle - You will generally find people in every CoI church that have one view or another. The Presbyterian Church went through a similar process already and while many churches lost members, there was no split - the people just went elsewhere, or stopped going to church altogether.

(The PCI broke communion with the Church of Scotland..)

In an increasingly secular world there are ridiculous calls for Christian churches to change their views on issues like this - usually from outside the church but sometimes from within. What's worse for a church? to slip into irrelevancy by slowing conceding to every human whim, or to stand its ground on biblical teaching serving an unchanging God?

A church that does not teach biblical truth is itself a lie

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464854#Comment_120464854

Already happening. I'm aware of parishes in Kerry where the only weekly service is on Thursday (or whenever). Officially there's a still a "Sunday obligation". In practice, people are smarter than that.

smacl

In an increasingly secular world there are ridiculous calls for Christian churches to change their views on issues like this - usually from outside the church but sometimes from within. What's worse for a church? to slip into irrelevancy by slowing conceding to every human whim, or to stand its ground on biblical teaching serving an unchanging God?

A church that does not teach biblical truth is itself a lie

It is no doubt a tough call. You could equally argue that the church is already slipping into irrelevancy by failing to keep pace with what broader society considers to be fair and decent treatment of all of its members. As a non Christian myself, I'd ask whether the primary message of Christianity of kindness and decency in how one treats others is more important than specifics such as same sex marriage? If the church adopts a stance that could be viewed as intolerant bordering on homophobic, this will increasingly be that narrow and rather extreme demographic that it draws on for its continued membership. For the record, I wouldn't consider discrimination against a same sex couple to be a whim.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570490#Comment_120570490

People might say the Catholic Church as declining as it holds until traditional values but the same liberal societies that promote progressive values are dying through non reproduction. Ireland's birth rate is below replacement since 1990. I imagine what we will see is a trend already established in religions further along the tracks like Judaism or the Dutch churches where the distance between secular and religious grows, but only religious have kids so there is a form of hemostasis. The Israel example is pretty famous but you see similar things in Netherlands and Finland.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804697#Comment_120804697

You might want to have a look at a population graph covering the last couple of decades, our population has grown substantially and continues to do so. The semi-rural neighborhood I moved to 20 years ago is now covered with apartment blocks with dense traffic outside most of the day. If the population were to fall back by a bit I for one would not be complaining. It is also pointless to talk about birth rate without talking about average life expectancy, where the latter has also grown in this country as has immigration. What is key to out future is not growth, it is sustainability.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805138#Comment_120805138

The population is growing through migration, linked to a strong economy.

People arent having as many kids because of the cost of living, but the population of ireland is only going to increase over the next decade or so, at least.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805154#Comment_120805154

Yep. People are starting families much later because they can't afford to buy their own homes until much later and are reluctant to start a family in rented accommodation. Lack of accommodation is, of course, also directly linked to population growth. Not sure religion or lack thereof has much to do with it.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805171#Comment_120805171

Exactly. I dont think religion is anything to do with it.

Its purely the cost of bringing up kids.

But overall the population will increase and there will be more kids in ireland.

Just that many will migrate here, rarher than being born here.