Food security

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118924904#Comment_118924904

Wouldn’t it be dreadful to be stuck at below cycling speed?

https://www.joe.ie/amp/life-style/dublin-traffic-658229

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118922388#Comment_118922388

I'm afraid you've misread the point.

1. I'm not saying the fact most of the food we actually eat is imported means that we don't produce enough food to meet our own needs. I'm saying the fact we are net importers of food energy means we don't produce enough food to meet our own needs.
2. The fact (that another poster contributed) that 75% of our actual food needs are imported does also point to a dependence on imports, that cannot be waved away with vague talk of tastes. Our food production is hugely concentrated in a handful of products, 90% of which are exported as there is no domestic demand for 90% of that output.
3. Ironically, if Irish people did switch from pasta back to potatoes, those potatoes would need to be imported. We already import a significant amount of our potato consumption.

Irish agriculture just isn't as hugely productive as its made out to be. That's why we end up importing veg from Holland, where apparently they can produce cheaply enough to arrive on your shelf in Aldi.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925371#Comment_118925371

I'm afraid that you just don't understand what you are reading and are drawing invalid conclusions. You are looking at only "energy" headline figure and arriving at a conclusion which is a complete non-sequitur

Let me give you a simple scenario using simple numbers.

Lets suppose that you, Villageidiot, have some marginal, currently unproductive land and

Scenario A is that you leave it to go wild. Let nature take it's course. Great for biodiversity etc etc. No food production from it though.

Scenario B is that you decide to improve the land and make it productive. You then decide to rear some cattle on it. The ratio of energy input to output is about 40:1 for beef. Let's suppose that you will get three-quarters of your energy requirements from grass (call it 30 units) from that land and the rest (call it 10 units) from concentrate feeds (just think not-grass.). As it is currently cheaper to import many of these concentrate feeds, you import those 10 units.

After you have reared the animal, it is slaughtered, processed and exported. So you export 1 unit of energy for each 10 you imported. Net loss is 9 units.

Scenario B results in a net energy deficit compared to Scenario A. We are talking about food security here. Extend this to all land currently used for beef or milk production. If we planted trees on all of that land, or allowed it to grow wild, all else equal we would drastically improve the net import/export equation in terms of energy. Do you really think that that means that Ireland would be more secure in terms of food production? I mean, that is what you would conclude by only concentrating on that energy argument. You are not even considering the fact that, should there be an emergency tomorrow, exports could be stopped or redirected to the local market.

Most of the food we export is high-value. That is where your perceived imbalance is coming from. Your argument is a form of "lies, damned lies, and statistics". Ireland is well able to feed itself and his very high food security. It is in the top couple of countries worldwide. The people who make those ranking, possibly know a little bit more about the topic than yourself

The reason for many of these "import" statistics are due to the large multiples and their logistical operations. They have large distribution networks, often in the UK. Everything is centralised. It might be cheaper for those multiples to bring in a tonne of potatoes to their store in Athlone that costs 500 from their large UK supplier than to buy a tonne of potatoes for 400 Euro from Farmer Jimmy who grows them on the outskirts of Athlone.

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925891#Comment_118925891

I'm afraid you are just ranting around the issue, without actually adding any value.

We couldn't exist for long on a diet that chiefly consists of beef and dairy, which is what gets produced here. Proof of the pudding is the eating - during the Emergency we experienced widespread malnutrition (in rural and urban areas) as the domestic food supply was inadequate.

The facts are already linked to the thread - no point in repeating them to folk who don't want to listen.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925937#Comment_118925937

Here, I tried my best. If you still don't understand it, then that is on you.

Ireland has top spot in global food security standings.

https://thatsfarming.com/farming-news/food-security-ireland/

People can believe the official sources, or they can believe VillageIdiot's ramblings and rantings on an anonymous messageboard.

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118926038#Comment_118926038

But, sure, we've already demonstrated that our food "security" (which you won't have noticed includes affordability) is achieved by importing 75% of our food needs, not by domestic production.

You really need to take a step back and reconsider.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118926386#Comment_118926386

Dude. I explained it to you. Let me break it down into two simple questions for you to see whether we can make any progress. Just two.

1) Can you understand that if we stopped producing beef (and milk) for export, and planted sitka spruce on all that land, that our "calorie deficit" would vanish and go positive? All other food production would remain the same. Just swapping land used for cattle to being land used for trees.

2) Do you think that Ireland would therefore have greater food security if we planted all that land in sitka spruce, vastly reducing our land available for food production, yet flipping our calorie deficit positive? In the event of WW III, would you think we'd be saying, "jaysus lads, given that we are now cut off, aren't we lucky that we took all that land out of production?"

When you get through those two steps, come back to us and let us know if you think that "net calories" equate to "food security". Please make an effort to read the questions and answer them. They are yes/no answers. If you give either of them to be a "no", then please justify your reason.

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118926460#Comment_118926460

If you're saying do I know our current level of food production has a high import content, the answer is yes. Sure, wasn't that also a problem in the Emergency. When imports of fertilizer and animal feed were curtailed, that impacted on production.

Now, I'm obviously avoiding your pointless "if I planted trees instead" canard. But I sort of assume your evasiveness means you are broadly aware that Irish agriculture largely produces meat and dairy. And that's not enough to make for a diet.

So you can go around in circles all you like, but Irish agriculture is not capable of providing more than 25% of our food needs. And it's been explained to you what the food security index means, and how it isn't a measure of domestic productivity.

So you're really left with nothing, because you've nothing to say about how Irish people could meet all or even most of their food needs from the output of Irish agriculture.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118927177#Comment_118927177

I made it simple for you dude. If you can't understand it by this then there is not much more than I can say. If you genuinely still cannot understand that "net calories" based off current import/export does not equate with food security, then I genuinely feel sorry for you and the people who have to put up with you in real life.

You claim evasiveness when you are the one being evasive - likely because actually you know you are wrong - although I might be giving you undeserved credit in asserting that.

For the rest of it, you are speaking out of your hole. Just prepare yourself to get used to paying more for your food going forward.

VillageIdiot71

Is there an echo in here?

In any event, apart from Donald, folk seem to get the point.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118927352#Comment_118927352

BTW there genius, last year Ireland exported more than 50 Euro in food and drink every week for every man, woman and child in the country. For a family of 2 adults and 2 children, more than 200 Euro per week is exported.

How do ya square that with your assertion that Ireland can only produce 25% of it's food needs? Lets assume that ZERO food produced in Ireland is currently consumed here. That means that your family must be currently paying 800 quid a week for groceries using your obsession with everything being measure just in terms of calories 🤣 . Because when the borders close, that 200 quids worth of food and drink will be consumed here. And it'll be only 25% of requirements - right?

Now let's modify it so that 50 Euro of Irish food is currently consumed by that Irish family. So that's 250 worth total that is produced on behalf of that family (200 exported + 50 consumed). Given your assertion of 25%, that means that family consumes 1000 Euro of food a week, 5% of it being Irish and 95% imported.

Do ya want me to keep going with higher percentages than 5%?

This is quite funny, however my time speaking with someone who knows absolutely nothing about the topic is just wasted. Nobody else is bothering to reply to you as they are mortified for you.

Donald Trump

I'll leave this here too. After this I don't have time to be entertaining ignorance.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/fp/p-favca/foodandagricultureavaluechainanalysis/foodanddrink/

VillageIdiot71

Posting a CSO release that you don’t understand isn’t helping you make any case for believing Irish households can source the 75% of imported food with domestic supply.

I doubt such a case can be made, or that you are capable of making it.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118927725#Comment_118927725

You realise we can source all of the food we eat right here in Ireland don't you? As long as what you eat is meat, milk, eggs, cheese, baby formula, don't forget pine needles for the vitamin c and of course nettle soup will replace imported tea and coffee, fruit and veg will be a treat but scurvy isn't really that bad is it, and don't be depending on spuds every evening either, unless you grow your own

animalinside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929056#Comment_118929056

'tis a great pity we can't grow such exotic crops as wheat, barley, oats, sugar beets, peas, carrots, cabbages, lettuce, and so on in Ireland isn't it.

VillageIdiot71

Indeed, you'd wonder why pretty much every slice of Irish Soda Bread you ever had was made from imported flour.

But, as the IFA would solemnly assure us, you'd need a tropical climate for a lot of the food we import. Which is why you so commonly see tomatoes from Holland on our shelves.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118926038#Comment_118926038

So what percentage of the food we eat in Ireland is actually grown in Ireland from day... i like to know the same for Finland and everywhere if anyone knows.

I think this is what the OP talking about...

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931246#Comment_118931246

The OP's use of stats is arseways.

If you want to ask the percentage of anything that is consumed anywhere that is not imported, that percentage would be less than 100%. That does not mean that the country does not produce enough food. Because every country in the world will be strictly less than 100% by that metric. You could never get more than 100%!!!! The OP equates that with food (in)security when it is a completely different metric.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931373#Comment_118931373

You want to answer what i asked you since you said we the most sustainable country worldwide for food... This thread is belong to the OP so the rules set by them...

You want to change great answer what i asked.... what percent of total food consumption in Ireland is Irish from day1...

Morris Moss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929419#Comment_118929419

All of that is grown here bar lettuce, I'll give you a few reasons why the country is predominantly dairy and beef.

number 1 is farm size, the average is 80 acres and the vast majority are smaller than that, so to farm full time with that size farm dairy is the only show in town and beef can be managed after work and at weekends.

2 is the fact veg growing is extremely specialized and not something that can be got into easily, also most veg growers would have hundreds if not thousands of acres of land.

3 is quality of the land, no explanation needed really, a lot isn't suited to tillage or veg.

The fact is it's a global economy and if you can name any country in the world that is self sufficient I'd like to know.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118932325#Comment_118932325

Spain definately for all human food.... possibly France... really have to think before adding more...

Morris Moss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118932493#Comment_118932493

Spain definitely not, beef is imported from Ireland, France again beef is imported from Ireland

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118932539#Comment_118932539

We are not talking about Irish beef... we are talking about stand alone in regard to stand alone food in a country meat/poltry/fruit/veg...

Irish beef is a luxury and even us wealthy people cannot afford...

Morris Moss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118932752#Comment_118932752

If that's the definition your going by, then Ireland is self sufficient as well

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118932752#Comment_118932752

Veg growing is no longer sustainable in Ireland due to regulation and below cost selling in super markets.

The Dutch and especially the Spanish have Always had a much more relaxed standard of food production and more importantly cheap gas to heat the houses. Spain treats its migrant labour like shi7.

Both are however under long term threat, and the same problems that finished Irish veg are present and growing problems in both and are frankly existential as well.

For right or wrong no one in the Western world gives a hoot about food security or production, zero interest, often deeply hostile.

We have the highest Wheat yield per acre.

Say my name

Seems there's farmers views and non farmers views on here.

I'll say this as a farmer view from listening to another farmer (potato grower). Who was complaining that there's 10% too much land under potatoes in this country. His reasoning? The buyers (supermarkets) were messing around the farmers by asking them to plant this years crop when last years wasn't sold yet. Getting them to sort and bag the crop and then renaging on taking the crop. So bags had to be reopened and emptied out again. Any sort of messing was being done to the growers. That he was proposing a 10% cut in production needed to occur with urgency.

silverharp

Energy security I get but most food is trade-able around the globe. Ireland can always buy whatever food it needs on the world market, a question is would people in ireland be prepared to give up bread for a year or two so that some people in the third world wouldnt starve? I'd imagine not ;-)....let them starve.

In terms of personal finances, most Irish people spend a lot of disposable income on alcohol, dining out, fast food, shop bought coffee and Spar deli food. If you can do that you can still afford steak even if it doubles in price.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931556#Comment_118931556

You cannot take a stat like calories in vs calories out and decide Ireland does not have food security. We have a comparative advantage for beef and dairy. Comparative advantages are the reason that international trade exists and why trade deals can greatly increase prosperity for both sides. Global prices for beef are about 5 Euro a kg at the minute. Spot prices for wheat on global markets are about 400 Euro. If we export 1T of beef, we can use that money to import 12T of wheat. In terms of calories, that is a massive imbalance, but it makes huge economic sense for the country to do that.

Suppose there was a crisis and we not able to export beef, and were also not able to import rice and pasta and veg, well the price of the former would drop and the price of (local alternatives for) the latter would increase. And farmers would produce to match that. It doesn't make financial or logistical sense to be thinking they should do it now - they simply won't have buyers.

What you can't expect is for a farmer, who might have a chance not to loose too much on rearing beef currently, to instead take on the expense of growing vegetables which will more than likely end up ploughed in as green fertilizer when the multiples decide on a whim that it suits them better to source them from their UK distribution centre later on. It would be like kicking half of the engineering students out of the colleges and asking them to train in childcare just in case there is a war and we won't be able to get cheap au-pairs in to mind the nation's children.

Food security is not about what was produced last year or the types of choices on your plate today. It is about ability to produce.

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118934228#Comment_118934228

Absolutely, in terms of affordability we can reasonably expect to be able to import food and pay for it, same as (say) Singapore.

What I find, though, is a lot of folk have an unrealistic picture of the productivity of Irish agriculture. They really believe we produce enough beef to feed 30 million people. We export about 500,000 tonnes of beef p.a., which is such a big number nobody is going to notice that 500,000 divided by 30 million = about 17 kg of beef for each of those people. Think you could live on a quarter pounder every second day for a year?

Irish agriculture isn't that productive, and the "€14 billion in exports" figure you hear includes booze, and is backed by about €1 billion in subsidies for agriculture. And you hear much less about the €10 billion in food imports that we need, as that puts a different complexion on things.

Oh, and such output as we have is not only concentrated on a few products, but also concentrated in a minority of farms.

In Ireland in 2016, a small number of economically very large farms (12%) produced close to two thirds (62%) of the agricultural output using 29% of the total farmed land area.

Anyway, that's enough probably myths exposed to daylight for one thread.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118934612#Comment_118934612

for sure , I wouldnt want Irish agriculture to go down the US route either, what the Americans call organic beef and organic butter we just call Beef and Butter.