30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

magicbastarder

Look at our statistics over the last decade though.

such as historically low levels of kids cycling to school, because it's too dangerous to?

the number (per capita) of kids cycling to primary school in the netherlands utterly dwarfs the number cycling to secondary school in ireland. you can't point at KSI stats for ireland and say 'job done'.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340547#Comment_119340547

it's worth pointing out that in relation to that stat about more secondary school girls reporting as driving themselves to school; in reality, if the statistic is accurate, that figure for drivers could really only be drawn from 5th and 6th years; whereas those cycling to school could be drawn from all 5 or 6 years. so if you were to just compare fifth and sixth years cycling to fifth and sixth years driving, it'd look noticeably worse for cycling.

also; perhaps the stat is due to people filling out the census form incorrectly. but that would illustrate the vanishingly small number of girls cycling to school, if people filling out the census incorrectly on that question can outnumber those cycling.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340562#Comment_119340562

I don't honestly know why Netherlands has a better cycle culture. I think most other countries have much better rail and underground networks.

That's likely what removes the cars off the roads.

Sadly we are decades away from that.

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339906#Comment_119339906

That's fair.

I think the point I was trying to make though was that if you make public transport affordable and convenient, then people will use it. Again to use my own example, I'd take the train all the time if it wasn't more than twice the price of driving.

The numbers should be the other way round.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340683#Comment_119340683

People absolutely love driving in the Netherlands. They drive all over Europe on their holidays and their motorways can be absolute nightmares. They have made a conscious choice to build and renovate their cities so that cars are forced to slow down and give right of way to other road users.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342733#Comment_119342733

Also fair. Intercity fares are not cheap enough in Ireland. I think the Dublin network fares are completely reasonable - it is now basically 2€ to get anywhere on the network. At that stage its not price driving people's choices.

I have far less faith than you that people will choose public transport if it is affordable and convenient though - there is a massive reluctance to give up car travel. We have people whose first choice for a 2k journey is to hop in the car...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342775#Comment_119342775

Yup, it regularly gets voted as one of the best places to drive

https://fortune.com/2015/09/30/best-country-drive-waze/

https://www.comparethemarket.com.au/car-insurance/features/best-countries-for-driving

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342733#Comment_119342733

In the past few months public transport fares have been cut by 20% and fuel for your car has increased in price by about 50%, which I think makes your comment seem a bit odd. Also to say that the train is more than twice the price of driving, may if there are 4 of you in the car but for a lone traveller totally untrue if you factor in the costs of driving properly.

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342783#Comment_119342783

If you're going within the Short Hop Zone, yes. That zone should really be extended out further than it is, though.

Bray to Maynooth is about 46km, and a one way costs €2.

Heuston to Newbridge is about 42km, and a one way costs €10.85 – I just pulled that figure off the Irish Rail website a few moments ago.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342820#Comment_119342820

You're making a specious argument there.

The car that I use – an EV – is a sunk cost. It's insured. It is required for journeys where public transport is not available. The overall cost of running the vehicle doesn't change in any significant way when I decide to drive into Dublin instead of taking the train. To that end, "the costs of driving" are not relevant here.

It costs €14 round trip for me to do Kildare to Grand Canal Dock by train.

It costs roughly €6 worth of electricity to do the round trip, and that's accounting for recent price rises.

Another serious crash this morning at a junction that constantly has crashes and fatalities. Won't mention exact location out of respect.

Have contacted TDs before to take action and still nothing.

If we really care about safety we need to be focusing more on these things than limits on already safe roads.

Seth Brundle

Whilst road engineering has a part to play in road safety, collisions at a junction usually are a direct result of a driver driving at an inappropriate speed.

horse7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118758411#Comment_118758411

Pedestrian,s are quite safe on the footpath, it's when I they cross the road problems can arise.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119346694#Comment_119346694

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/several-people-hospitalised-after-car-mounts-footpath-in-offaly-41164692.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/jogger-killed-when-hit-by-van-on-walkway-was-mother-of-four-1.4193893

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1922605/pedestrian-24-died-of-severe-brain-injury-after-he-was-horrifically-struck-by-car-after-motorist-lost-control-of-his-saab-convertible-and-mounted-pavement-in-dublin-inquest-hears/

Sadly there are many more examples.

railer201

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119346860#Comment_119346860

So where would you recommend pedestrians walk ? If footpaths are unsafe as your post infers, would you suggest they use the roads instead ?

This is the problem when you try to make exceptions to the rule the actual rule itself. If you find a safer place for pedestrians to walk, other than footpaths, do let us know.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119346694#Comment_119346694

seems cars are also quite safe on the footpath too.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119347131#Comment_119347131

I honestly don't know if you're being thick or just argumentative for the sake of it?

One poster states their agreement with the reduction from 50km/h to 30km/h because of the documented safety improvements. Another poster disputes that by claiming that pedestrians are safe when they are on the foot path, clear inference is that this makes the speed reduction unnecessary.

I then point out, with evidence, that higher speeds leads to death on footpaths too and you conclude from that that I believe pedestrians should walk somewhere other than the footpath, rather than the obvious inference that I agree speed reductions would increase the safety of pedestrians on footpaths? Seriously?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119346860#Comment_119346860

These cases are extremely rare, given that the articles you posted all date back years, in one case 2017. And your 2020 case showed that the driver in question was a complete maniac, driving for 1km on a fully segregated path. How exactly would carpet bombing the country with crawling speed limits stop maniacs who seem to be determined to cause havoc?

patrickbrophy18

Maybe restrict these limits to peak times or when pedestrians and cyclists are more likely to be on the streets in large numbers. Many (not all) of these 30 KMH speed limits are more to do with inconveniencing motorists in the guise of road safety. If it was part of a variable limit which adjusted itself to account for built up conditions, I could understand. However, having it in place all the time even when it is quiet is ridiculous.

I get having them in cul de sacs and residential side streets 24/7 but, they are not suitable on main roads or arterial routes. A prime example of this is the ludicrous 30KMH speed limit through the Phoenix Park thoroughfare. It isn't exactly a built up area and the sight lines are very clear the entire way up. Maybe, have pedestrian crossings with speed ramps at key points like the Zoo, Wellington Monument and other points where people are likely to gather en masse. Aside from that, having it the entire way up is complete overkill.

As @SeanW rightly pointed out, many of the examples people have given are cases where drivers are being criminally reckless and not sticking to the road and mounting pavements and not respecting boundaries. Given the obvious threat to human and animal life, they have no business driving. This has less to do with speed limits and everything to do with thuggish behaviour.

SeanW

I just re-read the article about the 2020 case and according to the reporting, that driver may have had some kind of medical issue. Wouldn't surprise if it weren't the same in some of the other cases.

As to the poster above referring to the supposed lack of schoolchildren cycling to school, it must be noted that there are issues semi-specific to Ireland when it comes to school transport. That is, that Ireland cannot guarantee a school place to a child in a given location. In the U.S. for example, a country famously car dependent where it's not uncommon for people to drive "gas guzzler" SUVs and pickup trucks that are taller than the people driving/riding in them, most children that live too far from a school to walk are provided with a bus service. The reason for that is simple: education is a municipal matter in the US and municipalities plan for education locally and typically guarantee a school place in an appropriate school to a child for any given level in any given part of their area. It then becomes very easy to plan transport around this and school buses are the norm. For that reason, it is very rare for a child to be driven/drive to school unless as a lifestyle choice, as it is rarely necessary.

magicbastarder

'the supposed lack of schoolchildren cycling to school' - the number cycling to school based on the 2016 census is one sixth what it was when I was cycling to school (late 80s/early 90s). That's not down to issues with getting a space in the local school, that's down to parents being too afraid to let their kids cycle (among other reasons)

As has been mentioned, based on the census returns of 2016, more female students drive themselves to school than cycle. That's an eye popping statistic.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356067#Comment_119356067

The one with the 2020 driver on the segregated path was an anomaly, agreed, but that doesn't mean these incidents are rare. And the fact that the incidents I linked to go back a couple of years, doesn't mean there haven't been more recent incidents. To a large part it's driven by the delays in our courts process and the fact that the specific details often only get mentioned in the media when the case gets to court.

Take this one for example:

https://connachttribune.ie/drivers-found-guilty-after-five-day-trial-over-pedestrian-deaths-487/

The deaths occurred more than four years ago, and I remember the crash being reported widely at the time, but I personally only became aware that the two ladies were on the footpath in the last couple of weeks when reading the detailed court coverage.

On the other hand, you have tragedies like this from a few weeks ago, where it has already been reported that the lady was on the footpath when she was killed.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/woman-dies-after-runaway-car-26808126

Possibly that's because, when there is photographic evidence that the driver ploughed through the footpath into a shop, journalists don't feel compelled to wait until something is given as evidence in court before reporting it.

In any case, I'm certainly not suggesting that the primary aim of lowered speed limits should be to guard against the actions of maniacs. Nor is it primarily about deaths on footpaths. I only posted those examples in response to a poster who made the erroneous claim that pedestrians are safe on the footpath.

The link between speed and severity of injury or risk of death is well understood. We can even see it clearly in the Irish stats. Deaths on rural roads outnumber deaths on urban roads 3:1 in Ireland. But the opposite is the case for serious injuries, where more are recorded on urban roads than on rural roads. Lower speeds in an urban environment is one of the main reasons why many of those collisions recorded as serious injuries didn't result in deaths. The RSA reported 1343 serious injuries last year, on top of the 137 deaths. Even that number could be understated as it relies on the Gardai conveying information to the RSA and they are only reporting 283 serious injuries to cyclists last year but, in a recent FOI request, the HSE reported 1693 serious injuries for the same period. If reduced speed limits, that don't have the same knock on effect on average speed, can significantly reduce the number of deaths and serious injuries, I believe they are worth pursuing.

The new Welsh approach; 20mph (32kph) as a base limit, but with the flexibility to set higher limits based on risks on specific roads, is a sensible one, I think.

SeanW

@magicbastarder you are putting the cart before the horse to some extent. In places where education is planned properly, the question of how children get to school is a settled matter. Like the US, either you live close enough to the school to walk, or you're offered a place on the school bus. Full stop.

@Unrealistic yes, these incidents are rare. According to statistics, fatalities in Ireland road deaths by any cause are limited to 3.3 per billion vehicle kilometres drive, by all types of motor vehicle. So to be involved in a fatal incident of any possible description, the statistically average driver would have to drive over 303 million kilometres. Now factor in that the majority of fatalities do not involve pedestrians and that in many cases of motorist-pedestrian collision, the pedestrians actions caused the collision (when last the RSA published statistics they found a significant percentage), and though I don't have exact statistics, in the cases where a motorist does actually cause the death of a pedestrian, I'd imagine most of those cases are at crossings and the like.

https://etsc.eu/wp-content/uploads/14-PIN-annual-report-FINAL.pdf

Of course terms like "safe" or "common" are relative and mean different things to different people, but it would nevertheless be stretching things to claim that motorists killing pedestrians on footpaths is "common" or that pedestrians are not "safe" on footpaths given statistics.

As someone who uses footpaths regularly my experience is that I have more to worry about from cyclists bulldozing me out of their way than the risk of being hit by a flipped-over car driven by a maniac, which is about on par with being hit by lightening or killed by a falling over vending machine.

The case to force 2.5 million+ drivers to crawl everywhere on the basis of Irish road safety just doesn't exist. More information for your perusal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Seth Brundle

@magicbastarder you are putting the cart before the horse to some extent. In places where education is planned properly, the question of how children get to school is a settled matter. Like the US, either you live close enough to the school to walk, or you're offered a place on the school bus. Full stop.

America's planning system has created cities where people tend to drive when commuting and the centres tend to become empty in the evening. People drive everywhere once they at home in the suburbs. Footpaths are a rarity as a result. America's plannjng system is not a good one to try and emulate at all!

As someone who uses footpaths regularly my experience is that I have more to worry about from cyclists bulldozing me out of their way than the risk of being hit by a flipped-over car driven by a maniac, which is about on par with being hit by lightening or killed by a falling over vending machine.

The case to force 2.5 million+ drivers to crawl everywhere on the basis of Irish road safety just doesn't exist.

Who exactly is forcing anyone driving to crawl (aside from other drivers in heavy traffic)?

SeanW

Some of that is true about the US, but their school systems tend to be the exception. If you are a young person in just about any municipality in the country, you WILL be offered a place in a school determined by your age/level and location. And if it's too far to walk, you're going to be offered a pass to use a municipality-wide school bus system. That's all basically set in stone. As someone who grew up using school buses on both sides of the Atlantic, it's just natural and when I see someone complaining about the modal-share mix of students travelling to school, my first question is "why are these kids not getting the school bus?"

In Ireland we have what in many places is a disjointed, haphazard mélange of schools that don't necessarily have a clear geographic remit and can't guarantee places to students in any given area - the concept of a publicly funded school "not having a place" for a local child is totally alien in places where education is planned in any kind of a coherent manner - like the US. Quelle surprise, many students/families have to make their own plans for student transport, and that often involves a car. So, yes, cart before the horse thinking in the case of the poster I was responding to.

As to "who exactly is forcing anyone to crawl" this entire thread is about activists pushing broad 30kph (or 18.5MPH) speed limits. So, yes, it's about activists forcing people to crawl for basically no reason.

magicbastarder

You're saying that is the reason that kids cycling to school has fallen to just one sixth what it was 25 years earlier? Seriously?

Dravokivich

In fairness I think less kids are cycling in general over that time frame too. With more using scooters as they are easier to get used to. But there's no way to lock them up if a kid was to use it to commute.

magicbastarder

In fairness I think less kids are cycling in general over that time frame too.

yes, but that's the same effect.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340683#Comment_119340683

Cycling in NL is easy because there are no hills. Most people of almost any age can cycle for miles along a flat landscape. In Ireland, the hills mean children are at risk going downhill, and everyone else has to tolerate the annoyance of struggling up hills

I went for a 10k cycle with the kids at the weekend. Where it was flat, it was a pleasure, we could take our time and the youngest child loved it. When it came to hills, she had her hands on the brake going downhill and was worried at the steeper ones, and when we had to go up hill she really struggled. Her bike has gears but she's still too young to know how to use them properly and they are hard for her to shift

magicbastarder

Cycling in NL is easy because they've the infrastructure.

harmless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119362870#Comment_119362870

Ireland is reasonably flat. Many cities in the US are as flat as the Netherleands. It's the infrastructure. Build it and they will come, many cities around have already proven this to be true.

All this painting white lines in the gutter needs to stop, it's making the roads worse for everyone.