Which one of us is the D*ckhead?

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830166#Comment_118830166

No, the problem with that scenario is that the pedestrian will be injured. Because A) they didn't look, B) the moped driver couldn't stop i time and C) the driver who stopped created the entire situation.

It's all too easy for people to state that the driver is the impatient one for continuing, as it appears that they gain an advantage, but the truth is that good driver will have seen the moped in the scenario above, assessed that the might not stop, and that the pedestrian may not look properly and walk out.

When I drive in Dublin city centre, I could spend my day flashing and waving cars across my path. The cyclists coming up my left wouldn't thank me for it, I absolutely assure you of that, but I can rest easy knowing that I was being a courteous and patient road user, and the collision was 100% legally the fault of the car who I allowed cross my path.

Continuing on is of course not universally the right thing to do. If I see a cyclist stopped on the right side of a straight road, waiting to turn across my path, I'll take a look behind me, and if nothing is overtaking (on the left or right), check if anyone else might misinterpret a flash of the lights, lift off, flash, and maybe brake if I need to, to let them get out of that situation.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118832887#Comment_118832887

My mistake. When I first watched that I thought the colour change of the number plate of the 172 car @4-5 second mark was a flash. On second viewing, more likely to be the crappy resolution and changing ambient light. I agree, there is not enough evidence in that video to show the driver was being courteous to the other driver. You are asking me to spend half an hour or so to review another thread to support my claim.. yeah I'll get right on that.

I do however refuse to believe that anyone that is aware of their surroundings while using the roads in a major city on any regular basis has not encountered a variance of the above with flashing, or similar to wave pedestrians out onto oncoming cycle traffic. It happens so regularly (and yes, anecdotal evidence as I don't go filming every commute). Is this what you are saying?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118832803#Comment_118832803

If a car is going to turn, they indicate to let other traffic know what's going to happen. If a child runs out in the road, that's unavoidable and you have to emergency stop. You have to do it but it casuse a significant risk of cars behind crushing into you the benefit of mot hitting the child is obvious.

Stopping for no obvious reason, in free flowing traffic, work no indication on othertrafgic about what's going to happen and for no better reason than to let someone cross, has a significant risk, but very little benefit.

Stopping from 80 or 100kph is very dangerous and youd need a pretty good reasonnto do it. Leting pedestrians cross is not a good enough reason. Just drive normally and we'll all get along fine. Pedestrians can cross when it's safe and traffic can flow normally.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833032#Comment_118833032

Maybe you should be telling drivers to stop acting erratically so?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833082#Comment_118833082

If your suggestion that " there are examples of this "courteous driving style" causing issues every other week in the "near misses" thread in the cycling forum" was vaguely true, it would take you three minutes to find some examples, not thirty minutes. The fact that you're making such a big deal about it is a strong indicator that there is little truth. I can't recall a situation where I've seen courteous driving cause serious danger, either in person or on video. I'm not saying it could never happen, but I'd suggest it would be a fairly unusual event.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833234#Comment_118833234

If a car is stopping, they use their brake lights to let traffic behind know what's going to happen. You might recall that I did mention about checking that there was no traffic coming behind that would be put in danger before deciding to stop, so I'm not talking about dropping anchors from 80-100 kmph in the middle of nowhere. If traffic is busy, there is often no reasonable opportunity for pedestrians to cross safely, unless someone decides to give them a break. There is a significant benefit, for the pedestrian.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833063#Comment_118833063

Yes, the driver should possibly have seen the moped and made a different decision, but if the moped decides to breeze past any vehicle stopped in traffic for any reason, that's on them. My suggestion is not dramatically different from your suggestion in your final paragraph btw, except that it generally involves stopping for a few seconds to let the pedestrian cross.

km991148

If someone doesn't encounter these issues I would only assume they are not on the roads much or they are not paying attention (or incredibly lucky - or maybe I am unlucky noticing these things? Or I need to check my visibility or something. I guess its possible). btw - I am not talking people getting run over or anything serious, just those moments of confusion or having to slow down to account for someone not seeing you after they were waved on by another road user.

It seems there are plenty of people that have encountered this. I am not sure why you are missing these scenarios AJR but since the thread has now reached max pedantry, it's time to hit unsubscribe!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833383#Comment_118833383

Doolittle51

@AndrewJRenko I can't dictate how people drive. It's just a fact that people act erratically when presented with an unexpected situation.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833032#Comment_118833032

Exactly, if everyone just followed the rules of the road and drove as predictably as possible then accidents would be kept to a minimum.

I find it shocking how people use their headlights as a tool of communication like morse code where they expect everyone to know what they are thinking based on how erratically they flash. Headlights are for seeing and to be seen - nothing else.

If there is a child or a dog running around on the road, put your hazard lights on and stop until it's safe to proceed again, otherwise mind your own business!

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833327#Comment_118833327

 "if the moped decides to breeze past any vehicle stopped in traffic for any reason, that's on them"

The legal responsibility might be, but what about injuries? It's a very cut and dry approach to road safety, and if I can pre-empt a possible accident I'll do so.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833437#Comment_118833437

People seem to be happy to dictate (or try to dictate) how I drive (or how I stop)!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833540#Comment_118833540

Yes, that's true, and I did highlight the importance of checking that everything was clear before stopping. Stopping to let a pedestrian cross can also pre-empt a collision that can arise if the pedestrian tries to cross when there is no safe gap.

SteM

Should we stop all of the time or some of the time? I've driven up busy places like Lower Rathmines Road plenty of times where people have been standing on the curb looking for a gap in traffic to cross the road. There are crossing available but not being used. Should we stop every time in this situation?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833692#Comment_118833692

Don't think anyone suggested it was compulsory. For me, if I see someone that I think needs a break, I'll let them cross if they can stop safely. Someone older, or minding a few wriggly kids, or whatever. Someone who is a good bit away from any lights or pedestrian crossing.

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118834944#Comment_118834944

I didn't suggest that anyone suggested it was compulsory. I asked a question.

Brian Scan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833692#Comment_118833692

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835094#Comment_118835094

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833530#Comment_118833530

You'd want to see the child from a long way out to have time to go to the hazards.

carfinder

Interesting thread. I read all the comments first before viewing the footage and I had to check that I was in the motoring forum - there is an anti motorist vibe from a few of the posters here!

About 6 years ago I was driving behind a car that stopped to let a mother and 2 kids cross the road in somewhat similar circumstances. Unfortunately a cyclist was not paying enough attention and took out one of the kids - nasty enough incident. Cyclist was actually aggressive in the iimmediate aftermath and had to be prevented from leaving the scene - ambulance and garda were called and the kid plus mother and uninjured kid taken away.

I gave a witness statement and eventually the child's mother sued the cyclist AND the motorist who beckoned them to cross the road. Cyclist was a student and had no means - it ended up that the motorists insurance company paid out as the motorist was deemed partially liable for the collision and was the only source of funds for the injured child. Some legal doctrine came in to play that meant the motorist got to pay 100% of the damages. Needless to say I don't beckon anybody to do anything on the road!

Doolittle51

Good to hear a first hand experience of how easily things can go wrong. Also very interesting to hear that the driver was found partially liable.

I also never beckon anybody or relinquish my right of way. I hate when drivers to this. It's much easier and safer when everybody obeys the rules of the road and rights of way.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118842301#Comment_118842301

Not beckoning is certainly good practice. Was that court case reported on? Seems like the kind of thing that press would have picked up on.

KieferFan69

Don’t have an opinion on the rights and wrongs of it but great video OP watched it a few times

Doolittle51

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845289#Comment_118845289

If you disagree with beckoning, how do you communicate with pedestrians when you stop to let them cross? No eye contact, no gesture, you just stop dead in the road and keep looking straight ahead?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845396#Comment_118845396

Why would you include eye contact with beckoning?

Doolittle51

You know what I mean, it's a signal to show the pedestrian that you are giving them permission to cross in front of you. If you want to be pedantic about it, beckoning includes head gestures.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845423#Comment_118845423

Eye contact is passive. All it tells the pedestrian is “I see you “. Everything else is up to the pedestrian. Very different to actually beckoning.

Doolittle51

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845548#Comment_118845548

Everything else is up to the pedestrian, but bear in mind that the driver can still be found liable if the pedestrian is injured. Who knows, beckoning might become a factor in a court case, but it would be their word against yours. The act of stopping, which caused the pedestrian to become injured is ultimately the reason why the driver was found liable.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845548#Comment_118845548

As a pedestrian I would ignore any gestures unless accompanied by a eye contact.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845585#Comment_118845585

I want to see the full reports on that case before jumping to conclusions.

Doolittle51

Well I don't think we are going to get a full report on that court case.

For me it's a real life example of how things can go badly wrong. If the driver didn't stop, he wouldn't have been found liable. He's caused himself and others a whole lot of hassle in the long run.

Markus Antonius

After all my talk of driving off and letting pedestrians cross when safe to do so, I came across this scenario on the way home from work today. I got caught in a junction not realising that the bridge ahead was full of traffic. The pedestrian light turned green before I got through so was forced to stop to let them cross. The driver in the lane to my right didn't spot that the pedestrians had right of way and (admittedly at a very slow speed) almost hit one of them!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dLpR2zhIRk

The irony that this happened where a driver actually should stop abruptly to let pedestrians cross

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118854223#Comment_118854223

That shows us two things: how our infrastructure is designed for drivers and not other road users and how Galway somehow manages to take it a step further

kirk.

Pedestrian crossings on corners seem somewhat unsafe to me .There's stripes been painted all over the place at T junctions

Am driving out the country so I often give way when necessary but I don't flash , usually the other person will check if it's safe themselves and I'll give a hand acknowledgement if they then look at me