Is it time to join Nato

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118742478#Comment_118742478

The UK is protecting itself. Far as I know we give them permission to. Nobody has threatened our sovereignty since the early days of the state and that was a now NATO member. Other than that, nobody has or shows any signs of it.

We need to patrol our waters for various reasons and need a navy. You could talk me out of a land army if you wish, I would be easily persuaded.

Notmything

I would argue that the only threat to our sovereignty in recent times were all the various terrorist organisations in the North. That's why we need an army.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743096#Comment_118743096

Why would we need to be in NATO to deal with an internal threat? I get your point about the need for an army.

Yurt2

Surely this war has brought it home to us that Europe's security is our security also.

By in large, we make no contribution to the defence and security of Europe, and the Russian navy episode is surely proof-positive that our underinvestment in defence is a liability for the continent. God knows what that Russian flotilla was really up to. Having witnessed the shocking events of the past two weeks, I don't think we can say with any confidence that those ships weren't in fact targetting the undersea cables.

I think if we understood the full extent to which Ireland is a safe harbour for malign activities from being a base for espionage on the continent and just generally a soft touch, we'd be shocked. The Russian embassy as an espionage hub for Western Europe has been in the press for a few years. The Gardai and Defence Forces more or less advised the government that's what they believed the extension of the embassy compound was about. I was a bit suspect about that assessment and thought it might be excitable Garda detectives sexing-up an extension and playing Jason Bourne. Now I'm not so sure.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118742090#Comment_118742090

Apparently, if we don't have it as a leash, us savage Irish would be invading countries left, right and centre.... or something to that effect.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118740595#Comment_118740595

No, I am not saying that.

I have repeated myself numerous times.

You cannot or do not what to understand.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118741587#Comment_118741587

100%

People also forget that part of this island is part of NATO already. Hence we get 'some' sort of defence by proxy. I would not be surprised if in any UI discussions this comes up.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743599#Comment_118743599

Oh I understand...no worries.

markodaly

https://twitter.com/NextIrishGE/status/1500407423793831939

The majority now think that our concept of Neutrality is out of date.

We also contemplated joining NATO in 1950, but wouldn't because the UK was a member.

This is a good thread on the issue. Adds some facts to the debate, rather than emotion and fake news.

https://twitter.com/DonnachaDCU/status/1500494078139641863

We really do love a bit of Myth-making in this country.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743653#Comment_118743653

1950 mark? There would have been many alive and well who had been through independence and a decade of carnage. I wouldn't expect them to trust Britain. Would you trust Boris? What about Iraq and WMD? Would you have been happy for your children to be dragged into that obscenity?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743704#Comment_118743704

Well done.

Whataboutism x 4.

NATO is not the UK..

Back on topic, Lemass in 1962

https://twitter.com/DonnachaDCU/status/1500496018374336515?s=20&t=ZMYGoR4VQtKmfhPKDMwhng

Irish government position in the 1980's

https://twitter.com/DonnachaDCU/status/1500582035982852099?s=20&t=ZMYGoR4VQtKmfhPKDMwhng

TLDR:

Irish Neutrality was always a stop-gap until something more convenient came along. It's also not enshrined in the constitution, unlike what some think.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743738#Comment_118743738

Realpolitik is not your thing is it?

No whataboutery in my post. If you think the US and the UK are not the primary powers in NATO that is a delusion only you suffer from. When it comes to starting wars I wouldn't trust either.

While neutrality doesn't require a referendum I don't think even FG and FF would be stupid enough to proceed without one but who knows. Any joining of an EU force requires a ref,

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743759#Comment_118743759

When it comes to starting wars I wouldn't trust either.

But you trust them enough to veto Ireland's foreign policy? :)

markodaly

On EU defence, I can easily see an EU treaty of sorts coming down the line, and we will need to vote on it.

Denmark is holding a ref in June about this.

Will be interesting to see if the usual cranks are in power next time out if this happens and they call, yet again to reject an EU treaty.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743774#Comment_118743774

How many times mark: our foreign policy is to take the direction of the UN.

Sorry, this is foreign policy 1st year stuff.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743797#Comment_118743797

our foreign policy is to take the direction of the UN......

....which can be vetoed by the Americans, Brits or Russians.....

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743804#Comment_118743804

Yes, and we knew that when we made it our foreign policy.

What was it you wanted to do without the blessing of the UN anyway? Oh wait! we can't do anything.

ROFL

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743815#Comment_118743815

I actually don't believe that. Our neutrality has always been a fudge and poorly thought out.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743829#Comment_118743829

?? We didn't know the top 5 in the UN had a veto?

That would be a savage indictment of FF and FG. Even a secondary school student would know of the veto.

323

Why would we want to be a part of NATO?

Its mandate to exist disappeared well over 30 years ago. But instead of being disbanded as it should have been as was the Warsaw Pact, it continued, not longer as a defensive alliance but as a tool of aggression, answerable to Washington DC.

Since then NATO and NATO member states, separately and together have destroyed the rule of international law, destroyed socially uplifting economies, destroyed democratic political economies, killed millions with their wars of aggression and created millions of refugees.

But then, sure think of the money/debt we would bring in by joining.

FrancieBrady

Looks like we are not very high up the list in Moscow.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1500789076487970818

ittakestwo

Some of our perceived allies may be in Nato but alot of other countries hate Nato. I think we should stay out for a few reasons.

1. We have a miniscule chance of been attacked by a non Nato country.

2. Being part of Nato will mean we have to get in wars otherwise we did not have to. Could actually increase are chances of being attacked rather than decrease it.

3. We can have better political relations with countries that dislike Nato like China for instance than are neighbouring European Nato members.

In America people hold guns to protect themselves. But because other people hold guns it makes more people hold guns and the places is awashed with guns and you are factually more likely to be killed by a gun. I feel this is the same story with us joining Nato. What appears should make us safer will actually make us less safe. Nobody sees Ireland as a threat at the moment but if we join Nato (hold a gun) they could as so many countries despise Nato.

Britain the only country that invaded us now wish they never set foot. If London could dump the North they would in a flash. Why would anyone else think they would have a better time of it here. We are just sitting at the edge of Europe minding our own bussiness and will get left alone.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744838#Comment_118744838

Never knew we left the EU...

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744437#Comment_118744437

Ah, the Putin talking points.... go on..

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703566#Comment_118703566

You do realise the RAF are our airforce if ever we need one ?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744855#Comment_118744855

1. We have a miniscule chance of been attacked by a non Nato country.

Yes, we wont ever again suffer a cyber attack again... no need to invest in that at all.

2. Being part of Nato will mean we have to get in wars otherwise we did not have to. Could actually increase are chances of being attacked rather than decrease it.

What wars are these? People confuse NATO with the US. NATO was not in Iraq for example, it was not in Vietnam, it was not in Gulf War I, it was not in Korea. People think NATO is automatically involved in any and all actions the Americans want to get involved in.

This is clearly false.

3. We can have better political relations with countries that dislike Nato like China for instance than are neighbouring European Nato members.

NATO has nothing to do with the Pacific or Asia or China. If you think Ireland being 'nice' to China will make them our friends, then I have magic beans to sell you.

corks finest

No no no no no no

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744899#Comment_118744899

1. Do you have to be in Nato to stop cyber attacks?

2. They were all offensive wars. But is it not the piont of Nato that they team up should one be invaded. If Russia invades Latvia for instance. Isn't Nato obliged to go to war with Russia. So yes joining nato would increase are chances of getting in wars.

3. China and others do not like Nato. By us joining Nato would weaken are political relations with them. No?

20silkcut

You can see the consequences of not being in NATO has for Ukraine right now in real time. And it is utterly brutal.

The Chinese would probably have to look up if we are in NATO or not if you asked them.

They probably assume we are because we are slap bang in the middle of the North Atlantic.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744997#Comment_118744997

What do you think would have happened the minute Ukraine was accepted into NATO? It was a zero sum game between two world powers and Ukraine is the pawn sadly.

Nobody seems to want to discuss this at the moment.