National Football League Discussion

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672255#Comment_118672255

Sure. But people can't have it both ways by taking the trophies and then hammering the next manager who needs to replace the squad.

I see people criticising the fact that Farrell has played 46 players or something like that, saying that he needs to stick with a team. But there is a hell of a lot of mileage there that needs replaced and how else is he going to do it?

This is what transition looks like. Turmoil, new faces, supporters complaining, exactly the same as for every other successful team in history.

Is Farrell the man for the job? I don't know, but I do think that no matter who has the job there is still going to be a few years of pain.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672334#Comment_118672334

I don't think Farrell is the right man but as you said about the few years of pain maybe there could be no right man. It might have always been a hiding to nothing.

Farrell's problem is he doesn't give the impression that he can turn it round. He doesn't instill confidence when you listen to him.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672334#Comment_118672334

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672358#Comment_118672358

Farrell feels like a stop gap type manager until a better/more experienced manager comes in. One think you can say about Dessie Farrell is that he has certainly dampened expectations for the next fella that takes the helm!

I don't think Dessie knows what is at tactically at all. A good manager makes a team play better than the sum of their parts. Dessie is doing the opposite. No way should Dublin have fallen so far, so quickly. You would expect a drop off but not this much.

When I think of a great football manager who shows he really knows his stuff, and how to mould a team regardless of the level. Pete McGrath never mind what he achieved with Down. I think his greatest achievement is what he did with Fermanagh IMO. Same with Micko for Kerry. His really impressive stuff came with Kildare/Laois etc. Even Wicklow.

I looked at the Leinster football championship draw - something I have not done in advance for years. Which says a lot in itself.

Dublin will face the winners of Offaly/Wexford. Wexford a team Dublin struggled against in the championship last year. Or Offaly a team on an upward curve following underage success. Dessie could be out the door very early in the summer!

Dublin's next match against Kildare in the league is already sold out. If my memory is served from that Kildare v Mayo championship game (Newbridge or Nowhere) the Lillywhite fans will make the place a real hostile atmosphere for Dublin.

All the neutrals will be checking in on it to see what the craic is - live on TG4. As a Dublin supporter I just expect more of the same poor stuff, and more frustration watching it.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672724#Comment_118672724

As bad as things look I think the will just about avoid the drop and probably still win Leinster too. A team that good cant keep losing.

bucketybuck

I always think back to that great Armagh team in the 2000's, they won the title and then could never quite get back to the top again. Great players still, Ulster titles still, but just never again giving people that sense of it being their year to smash all before them. Some players moved on, a lot still hung around, good new players joined the squad but by the late 2000's it was all stale and clear what direction they were going.

I see a lot of that in Dublin right now. You can point at a lot of top players, but the same lads have 6/7 all-irelands and I would likely say are never going to have that burning hunger ever again. The new lads have talent but are joining a panel of lads operating at 90%. Its a mix that gives you that stale squad that Armagh had in the 2000's.

Farrell's first mistake is that he didn't quit after winning the handy all-ireland in his first year, it would have been a handy segway from the Gavin era into a new era that begins with a clean slate. His second mistake is that he hasn't went far enough with the changes, there are still a lot of Gavin era 90%'s hanging around there. What Dublin needs is for the deck to be cleared and a new era to begin, and that is going to involve a lot of unhappy supporters wondering why some top names aren't playing.

The manager who does it probably won't survive the transition, but it still needs to be done.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672752#Comment_118672752

Jayus, I wouldn't be so sure at all. And I am not even codding. If the squad starts losing confidence as well it can only get worse before it gets better. Dublin were damn lucky not to get a hiding from Mayo on the scoreboard as it was.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672935#Comment_118672935

Na its 3 games into the league and this is a team that was very close to making the AI final last year. Div 1 is tight so going down is a possibility but i'de say they will still be strongest in Leinster.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672846#Comment_118672846

I agree with the quitting after the handy All-Ireland bit. But I don't buy this 6/7 experienced lads playing at 90% line. That is Pat Spillane's line. The tactics for Dublin are all over the shop. It has much more to do with coaching and style of play than fellas not working hard enough IMO. Fenton great player as he is getting no proper support for instance. Runs are not been made at the right times. And it is not just one game this has been happening. This craic has been going on since the Wexford game last year. Relying on Costello/Rock to nail the frees to get Dublin out of trouble is the limit of Dublin's threat at the moment.

As for the Armagh team from the 00's I always got the impression that they thought that they were better than they were. Plus the Cross lads saw Crossmaglen as No1 and Armagh was just a bonus.

theoneeyedman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672846#Comment_118672846

2 main reasons why Armagh didn't win more All Ireland's, a resurgent Kerry under Jack Conner and a once in a lifetime Tyrone squad.

Dessie is probably a good guy but I have little enough belief in him as a manager. His record at underage with Dublin is very mixed, didn't Longford knock one of his teams out at minor a few years ago?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118673436#Comment_118673436

There was a lot of teams seemed to have once in a generation good spells at the time. Even Limerick were taking scalps 😁

Even if Kerry or Armagh win this year you would say themselves or Tyrone would be close to their 00s teams.

theoneeyedman

That 2000s Tyrone team was something else though. 3 All Ireland titles, in spite of losing their goalkeeper on the pitch at minor level, and their captain less than a year after lifting their first Sam. Huge blows, perhaps you could argue they spurred Tyrone on in a strange way, but nonetheless the likes of Canavan, Kavanagh at his best, McGuigan, O'Neill, Jordan and a few more if I considered it would fit well into any team of generational players I've seen. Add to that (for better or worse) the strategy they developed of hunting/defending in packs and counter attacking in numbers at great speed which defines the way most teams still play now 15 or 20 years later.

Anyway, getting away from the NFL topic.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118673436#Comment_118673436

The Longford loss was in 2018? Farrell was u21 manager by 2012.

Anyway never mind the 'also rans' in the NFL. I was looking at the NFL table there. You would assume it is between Kerry/Tyrone/Mayo for the League final spots.

Mayo go to Kerry R5

Mayo go to Tyrone R6

Tyrone go to Kerry R7

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Those are three good ones for the neutral anyway.

billyhead

You would have to wonder though if Jim Gavin was taking over now would he get much return out of the current crop. Gavin was blessed to have the calibre of players he had. I recall him saying something like they didn't need much coaching.

MayoAreMagic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118674743#Comment_118674743

I wouldnt buy into the gavin hype that much personally to be honest. He made bad calls against ourselves in many of the games, but it wasnt ever really scrutinised because they won. Luck fell his way a few times also where to my mind he had actually been outplayed on the line.

The reality of it was that out of the matchday panels, dublin had superior players in 20 or more places, which is unheard of in most finals. Generally speaking they probably should have been winning by far more than they were. The truth of it is he had great players.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118690287#Comment_118690287

Jim Gavin did make mistakes most notably v Donegal leaving Bastick on the bench in 2014 AI SF. Never understood that for the life of me. When he was the player ideally suited to the type of game it was.

But on the other hand to say Jim Gavin was all hype, is also rewriting history a fair bit! Because I would argue most other managers would have lost the drawn AI final v Kerry. When Dublin were a man down. But Gavin had a plan worked out to counter that - quickly in the heat of battle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHR1RftyFr4&t=8s

Coaches will be analysing that game for decades to come. IMO

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Anyway don't mind the Dubs 'also rans' 😫

How do Mayo people feel Mayo are set for the league and then championships? There must be a real sense of expectation and daring to dream. Or a fear of dreaming?

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118691272#Comment_118691272

We're busy buying up lambs now so we can get them all painted for the summer

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118691642#Comment_118691642

🤣

Brilliant post!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118691642#Comment_118691642

#Mayo4lamb

MayoAreMagic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118691272#Comment_118691272

Well i didnt say he was all hype to be fair...

I just pointed out that he made several decisions that werent actually good ones if you look at them analytically, but the team still won despite them and history is written by the winners.

Im not saying he was no good either, just that what generally wins things is having the best players. He had those in abundance. Most dubs Id have encountered would only have taken keegan from the mayo team. Now I dont agree with that but it speaks volumes about the selection available to dublin at that time. As 'arry redknapp used to say, the best managers generally have the best players in their team.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692496#Comment_118692496

Not necessarily remember 'Carlow rising' in the league/ championship under Turlough O’Brien ?

Success is all relative. Micko in Wicklow-Kildare-Laois v success in Kerry. Pete McGrath in Fermanagh in the championship around 04 v his success with Down. A really good manager makes the best use of what they have and makes them overachieve. Greater than the sum of their parts.

When it comes to the crunch they get the job done, and do so regularly. It will be interesting to see are Tyrone on the cusp of a dynasty - or Kerry. Or will Mayo win just the one? I would not dare use the word 'Dynasty' after Mayo or people will think I meant that American soap opera!

I would argue that Mayo has the better panel than Tyrone at the moment. But still Tyrone won Sam. Will Mayo win the league probably - high chance of it. Less of a mental block (from a Mayo point of view) than the championship.

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By the way when Dublin were flying I think Mayo's Kevin McLoughlin/Andy Moran would have found a place on the Dublin panel. Never say die fellas like that are worth their weight in gold.

MayoAreMagic

Well actual success isnt relative, i.e. the winning of the top gong each year. That can be measured in top level titles won. However people often rephrase progress as success, as you have there with carlow etc. which when you think about it is probably a touch patronising (and ive probably done it myself also).

If you consider dublin, the fans dont talk about the success of their hurlers - or the dynasty of their hurlers, who have progressed hugely. They rattle off the titles their footballers have won, which tells you the reality of the thing.

Re the dynasty, now that is relative. Dublin dont have a 'dublin' to contend with like mayo or kerry or whoever else do. Maybe if london keep progressing we might reach that point someday.

On mayo-tyrone, tyrone had a better squad than we had on the day of the all ireland final. They had a stronger bench - some of whom have now stepped away. People forget, they also beat kerry last year, who were the actual favourites for the thing.

Re moran/mcloughlin - so 3 mayo players would have made the dublin squad in your book. Surely that only underlines my point about gavin?

I would illustrate my point by saying this, if gavin was managing mayo and made the type of errors he did, then I believe we would have been much more soundly beaten by dublin.

Interestingly, I felt that rochford outfoxed gavin more than anyone. He cracked cluxtons kickouts. He identified and neutralised kilkenny. He controlled the middle of the park. He selected matchups that worked in our favour. He cancelled out so many of dublins advantages all at once to the point that he brought dublin back to the pack, and gavin seemed to not be able to do much about it. Yet their contests will be remembered mostly for the keeper switch. (Which in reality was simply a basic skill error on the part of the keeper - not really the managers doing.) That kinda underlines what I am trying to say.

PressRun

Gavin's greatest strength was handling strong characters and managing egos imo. He was a great man manager. He kept that Dublin dressing room in check and whatever about decisions on the line, the players bought into him fully and wanted to impress him. I don't think they believe in Farrell in the same way and if I were a Dublin supporter, I'd be concerned that Farrell doesn't have the full buy-in of the dressing room.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118695911#Comment_118695911

I understand your point what you are trying to say I still don’t agree with it though. It is not meant to be patronising about Carlow it was a great achievement relative to the tools available.

On the other side of the coin Managers can have great players available -and yet they underachieved.

Plenty of football teams like that in Gaelic Football history. Dublin in the 90’s - Mayo most eras - Tyrone in the later stages of the M Harte era. Great players does not mean great success. But having all the things in background done correctly can make any team successful relative to the players available v the competitors.

Based on my way of looking at things on the league for example -If Kildare stay in div 1 that is a great success in my view. Even been in the mix to stay up is a form of success for Kildare. Improvement.

In contrast - If Dublin get relegated it is an abject failure. Real underachievement. Even been in the mix for relegation is some form of failure.

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As for the Dublin hurlers / I got even more emotional about Dublin winning the league. Than I did when the footballers won Sam. I would argue that the hurlers winning the league was an even greater achievement than the footballers winning Sam the same year.

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It is always how I judge success. Have an idea how I rate a team/manager. Then when the league or championship is over. I ask myself three simple questions.

Has that team over achieved?

Has it maintained standards?

Or has it underachieved?

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Gaelic Football (or any sport) is not just about silverware. It is about shocks. Overachievers improvement of standards by coaches. Getting the last ounce out of each player. Making a team greater than the sum of its parts.

That is what Dublin did standards were improved and maintained on for a long period. Mentally, physically, technically- with no switching off. Or laziness. Which is an achievement in itself.

It just so happened that Dublin’s success meant a lot of silverware. If Kieran McGeeney managed Dublin for example would they have won as much? I doubt it.

—

On the Mayo keeper switch that was flaw of management IMO. Mayo must surely have a consistent 7/10 keeper in the county. Picking an inconsistent erratic keeper is not good management.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696291#Comment_118696291

I am mentally preparing myself for more frustration watching Dublin v Kildare. I will be hoarse shouting in annoyance I predict.

PressRun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696590#Comment_118696590

Did you read the Malachy Clerkin article published today in the IT? He thinks Dublin are trying to play in a new style (more kick passing) and that's what's at the root of the bad results. He backs it up with plenty of evidence to be fair to him (he actually thinks it's the older players who are having trouble adapting, not the younger ones) and he seems to think there's still time for it to come right once the better weather arrives, but I'm still not entirely convinced. I still think there seems to be a bit of a malaise within the team at the moment. Like I said above, I'm just not convinced there's full buy-in to Farrell.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696709#Comment_118696709

Thanks for that it is well written

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/league-defeats-have-exposed-dublin-s-struggles-to-change-their-style-1.4811971

But in that case all I have seen so far is the worst of both worlds in the league from Dublin.

Aimless kicking/ kick passes. And/Or Slow side to side stuff keeping the ball going nowhere. Plenty of times so far in the league. I was roaring kick it move the ball fast!

If Farrell is trying to go direct as Clerkin suggests. Farrell badly needs to find an Eoghan O’Gara type of player and soon.

Personally I think Farrell needs to focus on player movement first. Players giving options to the player in possession. No point in kicking it when no one is willing to make a run.

PressRun

Personally not sure why Kilkenny isn't being deployed in a more direct, attacking role, especially in the absence of an O'Callaghan. He has the movement imo. He's being played too defensive atm, for my taste. Now, I don't know if that's on instruction from management (presumably it is) or if he's just choosing to drift out more, but I don't see the benefit when he's well fit to take a score.

RedDevil55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118697253#Comment_118697253

I couldn't believe Kilkenny wasn't put full forward for the 2nd half last weekend. Mayo had a rookie full back playing so it would have caused us a problem and given Dublin a target man to kick into.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118697253#Comment_118697253

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118697675#Comment_118697675

Solutions always seem very easy. Last few games Kilkenny has being coming out field to get on the ball. There is very poor leadership at present in the middle third by Dublin.

One of the biggest issue is they can no longer afford to carry Rock just to take frees. He is not carrying out any other function and has become too easy to mark. Dublin can no longer carry him and hope that he gets loose in a scoring position where you can give him the ball.

They should beat Kildare today. If they do not it's highly unlikely they can avoid relegation. The more testing game will be to be Donegal in Croke Park. Dublin needs 4 points from these two matches.

There real problem is they may need 2 points( because of there scoring difference) from the away games against Monaghan and Tyrone. I think that is where they may come unstuck.

Hammer Archer

Meath scraped a draw in Tullamore after a goal with literally the last touch of the game. Players just seem to have given up under McEntee. They know he's out the door at the end of the season.