Applying for .243

Rick Dalton

Hi guys, have a few queries about the above which some of you all may be able to help me with.

I am going to make a move up to a centrefire rifle in the coming months. I have many years experience of shotgun and rimfire rifle shooting and have an ambition to move up to a centrefire for both foxing (which I currently use my .17hmr for) and possibly deer in the future.

I have access to land suitable for fulfilling the deer license requirements and being a farmer have reason for owning a centrefire for fox control in the eyes of my FO. I established this following a phone call - he’s a very helpful guy!

My query is do I need to have a deer license prior to getting licensed or do I get licensed on the basis of the land I have access too and then subsequently apply for a deer license? Reading the deer license application suggests this scenario but I could be wrong!

My plan would be to get my .243 and become competent with it through foxing etc and move on to deer only when I’m confident with it and fully prepared as it’s a pretty big step up with plenty of learning required as I am sure most of you know.

Alternatively I could go with a .223 for now and trade up to a deer calibre in a year or so.

I’d appreciate any advice lads may have on the topic in general.

Cheers

kunekunesika

Put in for the 243 now, which you need for foxing. Explain as above you are chosing 243 as dual purpose, to avoid the need for 2 firearms. Put in a copy of your application for your deer licence, and hope the weight of you being a farmer carrys it through for vermin purposes.

Most people have to get the deer licence before they get the centre fire licence, but your case is different, being a landowner. Wouldn't mention delay being due to getting experience. Need foxing rifle now, deer licence will follow as soon as npws get around to it, which could be a while.

Rick Dalton

Thanks for the advice and it has sort of brought on another question. If it is a requirement for someone to have a deer license in order to get approval for a .243 / 270 etc. are they required to have a deer license every year.

For example, Someone gets approval for a license application because they had a deer license at the time of applying but in subsequent years they did not hold a deer license and used the rifle for foxes or didn’t use it at all. Are they in breach of anything? When their renewal comes around would they have to prove that they have a reasonable reason for requiring the firearm again which they may not have if they haven’t renewed their deer license?

Cass

Rick Dalton - Thanks for the advice and it has sort of brought on another question. If it is a requirement for someone to have a deer license in order to get approval for a .243 / 270 etc. are they required to have a deer license every year.

There is no such requirement.

This is one of those things that has grown a life of its own over the years. The law makes no mention of Deer, target shooting, or any other specific form of shooting to possess a larger caliber centrefire rifle. It only says you must show good reason. Now you might say that a Deer license (or Deer stalking/hunting) is good reason and you'd be 100% correct, but if you want a larger caliber centrefire rifle, in this case a 243, but have no interest in Deer shooting then you need only show good reason as to why a 243 is "more" suitable than another, smaller, caliber such as a 223.

To do this you need only show why the 243 is required and why the 223 would not suffice. Most people do this in one of two ways:

1. Deer license
2. Target shooting

You are not into/currently doing target shooting (an assumption) and for the moment have no plans to go into Deer shooting but may in the future. So you need to explain your situation based on that. My line of thinking would go something like:

• 243 is an excellent dual purpose caliber in that it can be used for both vermin and Deer hunting (if/when you decide to get into it).
• How you do not want to put in a "fraudulent" application for a 223 as its not the rifle/caliber you need and any application for something a person has no good reason for is classed as fraudulent.
• That in getting a 243 you can become proficient with it and while not a requisite for a license (proficiency) when you eventually make the move to Deer hunting and apply for the license you will be not only proficient but well versed in the ballisitics and capabilities of the 243 making you a safer hunter. In short you want some time with the 243 before venturing into Deer hunting.
• You can give alittle on ballistics in that the 243 is a better round than the 223. Its flatter, faster, has a higher impact energy so gives more humane kills, bucks the wind better so is a safer round overall. This also feeds into the above point about "learning" on the 243 before moving into Deer hunting as to do so with the 223 first and then move onto the 243 would require to, to a degree, start from fresh and relearn drops, hold, windage, capability of the round, etc.

There may be more and if you think about it you can easily, and honestly, make a good reason argument for the 243, but as it stands there is no law requiring you to be a member of a range or have a Deer license to own a large caliber centrefire rifle. Only the legal justification of good reason which can be shown in a dozen different ways, a few of which I've outlined above.

Rick Dalton

Hi Cass thanks very much for that you’ve sort of hit the nail on the head! It would be easier for me to go .243 as it sort of future proofs me if or when I go down the deer route and avoids having to go through the licensing process again!

Thanks again!

17hmr1

I'm moving from a 17hmr to a .223.My go rang me over a week ago to ask a few questions and to let me know he was advising it was ok to proceed with a substitute and not a new license.

He asked me why I went with a 223 and not a 243 as that was one of the most popular rifles he was seeing coming into him now as deer have spread throughout Kildare,that's where I'm based.I said to him I thought you need land permission with deer on it to get that calibre.He said I would not as I've family land and he classified 243 as both vermin and deer capable.

kunekunesika

I would take that offer and run with it. Plenty of older guys with 243 on fox only, not as easy or possible now in certain areas. So grab the 243, get used to and by the time your sorted with npws the deer will have arrived at your farm😁 enjoy.

tikka225

Just a thought for you.

you ever consider a 22250 or a 220swift.

I did a sub from 223 to 22250 for vermin and then licenced the 22250 with the npws for deer and clarified this with an garda at a later date.

I find this calibre is a great combo and can be licensed for vermin .

I found it always comes down to the super and they can accommodate as they see fit.

Also the 250 has a nice selection of ammo 40-60gr in Ireland.

It's a super flat round with little recoil.

Good luck with your new rifle

Rick Dalton

The 22-250 had come to mind previously but I hadn’t done much homework into the calibre perhaps it’s something to consider and look into a little more. You mention it recoils a little less so would it in general be a quieter round than a .243?

Cass

In my opinion, steer clear of the 22-250, and the Swift for that matter. Only one, perhaps two, rounds either just make the legal "cut-off" point and even that is barely.

For Deer the law says you need a .22 centrefire bullet of no less than 55gr producing 1,700ft/lb at the muzzle. For this reason 223s, 204s, some 220 Swift and most 22-250 rounds don't make the cut. Remember it must meet all three criteria so you need to be using a 55gr bullet for a start and it must deliver 1,700ft/lb at the muzzle. For example the hornady 55gr V-max in 22-250 only produces 1,650ft/lb so while its 22 centrefire and 55gr its not legal as the energy prduced is below 1,700ft/lb.

The Swift is also in the same boat and most shooters had to move to 60gr which while slower met the necessary energy limits, and only just at that. IOW they are "barely legal". Then there is the issue of availability. While some bullets in these calibers might make the cut you might find you cannot get them in Ireland so the point of them being legal or not is moot.

The 243 is legal in all bullet choices from 58gr up to 100gr. So you need never fear running afoul of the law or being questioned by NPWs over the suitability of the caliber/bullet choice.

Rick Dalton

Sounds like solid advice Cass many thanks!!

Eurocodus

Rick, after this season you will have to do the HCAP or equivalent. I would make my application now to avoid doing these courses.

https://www.npws.ie/licencesandconsents/hunting/deer-hunting-licences-2021-2022/mandatory-certification-deer-hunters

Rick Dalton

Thanks Euro, I had seen that previously and assumed it would apply to me. From looking at the deer license application I am required to have details of my rifle to complete it. Is it possible to apply for a deer license without being licensed on a deer calibre I don’t see that it is.

I guess that anyone applying after the 28th February has to supply the HCAP or equivalent or have I interpreted that wrong?

I have no big objection to having to complete a course I’m sure there is merit in doing it.. provided it’s not a complete money racket!!

kunekunesika

Use the number and details off any deer legal rifle for your application. A friends rifle will do. I used my rifle number on the application for anyone I have helped. Then buy whatever rifle you want, and use those details on the next year's deer licence.

Other option is put a deposit on a 243 in the dealers, and use the details from it for your deer application.

Eurocodus

HCAP costs €165 and the manual €35. Country sports Ireland costs €175. The NPWS say that mandatory certification will come into force in the 22-23 season for first time deer shooters (see link above).

We are still in the 21-22 season, the NPWS have got quick in turning around deer licences (say 2 weeks at this time of year). There are two distinct areas: a deer stalking licence and a firearm licence. The deer stalking licence is the first port of call. Kunekunesika has outlined the two methods above. I would just put down a deposit say €200 for a rifle and get the deer licence. A colleague of mine bought a Sabetti 243 for €450 for a clean rifle so there is value out there. I shot a Tikka T3 hunter 243 myself and used to use a CZ.

After the deer licence has being received fill in the firearm licence which you would be aware of having a shotgun and a 17 HMR. Remember to attach a copy of the deer licence.

Link up with a deer stalker to show the ropes when you are setup.

Rick Dalton

Thanks Euro, yep I’m familiar with the gun licensing aspect I just wasn’t sure how the deer licensing tied into it. Far better grasp of it now thanks to you and others here!!

Following all advice the plan is to head to my RFD over the coming days and hopefully put a deposit down on a .243 and apply for deer license then.

I’m sure I’ll be back soon looking for advice or guidance again so stay tuned!!

kunekunesika

Good luck

You'll have a ball with a 243

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118521585#Comment_118521585

I’d agree with Cass in regards to those calibres. Sure some of them, just sneak past the limits and are legal to hunt deer with. But your really cutting your ammo selection in half and limiting what you rifle may or may not like. Stopping power at longer ranges is hindered.

Theres no distinction in irish law between species, but many countries require larger calibres for reds.

pretty sure Deer Alliance/NPWS recommend .243+ and 2100j+

Rescueme0007

I have a submission for your consideration; .243 (6mm) is a fine calibre and if your heart is set on it then crack on. I would also submit that a 6.5 X 55SE might suit you as an alternative. Particularly as one can get heavier rounds and slightly greater energy for deer shooting (when the time comes), it's also a calibre which the AGS are very comfortable with.

My son just got his full licence (as opposed to a training licence) for the 6.5 X 55SE which I was keen he should do to obviate the need for the HCAP etc.,

The NPWS are notoriously slow to respond to Deer Licence applications, however the Inspector (AGS) I spoke with indicated that he would be happy with a copy of the application and some kind of acknowledgement from the NPWS that it was being processed so that he could facilitate the firearms licence application.

I wish you good fortune in your endeavours!

tikkamark

I’ve both a .223 and .243 they are both used for foxes and the very odd deer with the .243 the .223 is a permanent nv fox rifle and the .243 is setup for long distance foxes on more open ground….in my experience the .243 is a cracker of a caliber-nothing short of awesome on foxes and perfectly capable on any deer on this island With the right person on the trigger.It will serve the duel role fox deer for you perfectly.They are excellent at distance too👌🏻

tikkamark

may I add there is a brilliant selection of ammo available in nearly gun shop for the .243

Rick Dalton

Hi guys thanks for all the advise.

Just to update I've bought a .243 and I am awaiting license approval. Looking forward to getting up and running I'll be looking for advice again I'm sure so watch this space.