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They are canceling Tienanmen,again

  • 24-12-2021 1:25pm
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭

    some pretty impressive works of art are being dismantled in Honk Kong.

    How does this barbaric vandalism compare to the Taliban's destruction of ancient religious monuments in the recent past?

    More generally how do we deal with this Chinese regime?(is it coming to a country near you?)

    Oh, and are there any defenders of this jackbootery?I know you are out there.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,154 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp

    What we can do is absolutely nothing, because China's position is simply too powerful within modern geopolitics to build pressure for change. All we can do is sit and watch Hong Kong's independence shrivel slowly by iconoclastic actions, or ones aimed at the democratic process itself.

    Sanctions only go so far and it's easy to forget just how much influence China has now within Africa and South America (just look at the vaccine rollouts there, and who's supplying the jabs), that any punitive may stall because of resistance outside the US/EU

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,314 ✭✭✭✭Dav010

    How does it compare? One is ancient religious monuments, the other is horrible looking modern piece of art, albeit in memory of something important. Hong Kong is now a SPR of China, it is hardly surprising that the Chinese Government wants to remove it. Monuments to historic people and events have also recently been removed in both the US and UK.

    I doubt the Chinese will invade Ireland, so I’m not too concerned myself. They make damn good phones and I’m very happy with my golf clubs.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭amandstu

    "Monuments to historic people and events have also recently been removed in both the US and UK."

    Oh so you are justifying the Chinese regime's behaviour because people over here object to slave owners exploiters and traders being accorded deference with their statues remaining on public display down the years?

    Perhaps we could erect a statue to Cromwell in the Phoenix Park? I am sure it could be justified too if the will was there.

    Post edited by amandstu on

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,141 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious

    In before the inevitable "The Chinese, a great bunch of lads" or something like that, post.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,314 ✭✭✭✭Dav010

    If there was a statue of Cromwell, would you argue about being taken down even though it would be a historical monument? I doubt it.

    The Chinese object to the Hong Kong monuments, and as HK is now a region of China thanks to the UK handing it over, I suppose they get to decide what monuments they want to keep.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,141 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious

    The UK "handed it over" as you say 25 years ago.

    It's supposed to be a 50 year transition period for it to be fully integrated into China.

    So it's only half way to becoming a "region of China" as you say.

    So it still has a degree of autonomy.

    However recent events are really shown that China are not going to wait around for the next 25 years to get that integration finished.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭amandstu

    You "think" the Chinese get a say?


    We are talking about an anti democratic regime.

    Of course there are those among us who would be quite happy with unrepresentative regimes....

    In the case of a putative Cromwell statue that would be a matter for democratic debate and decision making.

    My opinion might be not very interesting in that context.

  • Registered Users Posts: 628 ✭✭✭MakersMark

    Its okay, because its not Trump tearing down the shrine.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,314 ✭✭✭✭Dav010

    Chinese as in the Government.

    Some English monuments were removed/destroyed in Ireland too you know, and there wasn’t a vote.

    I don’t agree with the removal of the monuments in HK, but as that is now part of China I recognise that the Government wants to remove them, and can. Some people may have objected to the English monuments being removed from Ireland, but as Ireland was now self governed, they had the right to remove them.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭amandstu

    "Chinese as in the Government"

    Indeed."illegitimate" might also be a descriptor.

    The "right" of the Irish to remove monuments on their soil is limited by the democratic nature of the government.

    That government would ,if it had a mandate be within its legal and moral rights to put them up again.

    The Chinese government lacks such credentials but "we love their phones"(paraphrase)

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Get a grip, a modern statue is in no way comparable to ancient religious stonework that the Taliban or IS are destroying.

    This is more akin to the council chopping down a much loved neighbourhood tree.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭amandstu

    Both are illegitimate regimes destroying the evidence

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,314 ✭✭✭✭Dav010

    Meh, they still make great phones.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭amandstu

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,429 ✭✭✭XsApollo

    They are cancelling everything , uyghurs , languages, religions, history.

    bunch of animals over there.

    The tribunal to investigate the claims of the genocide against uyghurs has confirmed that China is committing genocide against them.

    its like our generations Holocaust and will our governments do anything , I haven’t heard a peep from ours.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado

    I expect there will be a ban on Chinese manufactured goods to the western world in the new year??

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    There is already Chinese antidumping laws coming early in the new year.

    I'll go out of my to NOT buy Chinese products (I almost certainly unconsciously do).

    The recent elections in HK guaranteed a majority lackey government, and was largely boycotted by the locals. Any semblance of HK independence is a sham, which the Chinese government are masters at.

    The Chinese government are power hungry, and play the long game. They felt humiliated during the WW2 period, and now will do whatever it takes to ensure that doesn't happen again. Democracy is weakness in their eyes.

    They are very much a threat to the rest of the world. One thing that may hold them back is that their economy may be over heating.

    NOT a great bunch of lads afterall.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado

    You may be right but we buy all their goods... we will talk d=for a few weeks and then we will move on to next chapter....

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,198 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Every little doesn't help them.

    Very few people would have bought German goods during ww2 (even if they were available). This is a long war. We're supporting our enemies by buying their productd. It's Christmas so I'll get off my soap box 🙃

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22

    Would be great if all the Sinophobes would boycott Chinese products.

    Then we wouldn't have to read their mindless hate speech drivel all over the internet 😴

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭amandstu

    Who is a Sinophobe?

    Someone you can give a misleading label to to mischaracterize their ideas?

    Are you a Democratophobe ?

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,314 ✭✭✭✭Dav010

    As the PM of a notable democracy once said, “democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.” When you look at some of the tools that have been democratically elected in countries around the world over the last decade, I wouldn’t be holding up democracy as a beacon of righteousness.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭amandstu

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,355 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig

    It is a matter of perspective. We don't like seeing the destruction of statues in HK as we were broadly supportive of the movement being commemorated. Others might see Tiananmen Square as a rebellion of sorts and don't hold them in any great stead.

    Outrage here is based on the belief that our opinion is the superior one.

    Personally I am not in favour of destruction of historical monuments. I would include statues of former UK kings and queens and Stalin or Hitler elsewhere. They can be moved or given less prominent display but they are still important historical figures that need to be remembered.

    I don't need my history to be sanitised for me.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭amandstu

    "Others might see Tiananmen Square as a rebellion of sorts and don't hold them in any great stead"


    Who are these "others" that support the crackdown in Tienanmen square

    Is there a separate group of "others" who support the attempted erasal of those events from recorded history

    Let's drink to a future without "rebellions" :'-(

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭amandstu

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,154 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp

    I think there's a degree of (intentional?) misreading of context against the broader happenings within HK; it's more than just pulling down statues going on here, and you can't compare it as just some internal nothing. Not least framed against the "elections" recently won by Beijing approved candidates and the slow removal of independence.

    And trying to imply racism is just an especially bad faith, needlessly hostile take.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭amandstu

    It is lazy ,expedient and probably indicative of the guilty conscience that accuses one's adversaries of that which applies to oneself

    Perhaps also an attempt to shut down discussion