Róisín Shortall

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118350718#Comment_118350718

I'm not sure that any rules were bent. My recall is that there was a list drawn up of locations eligible for primary care centres. The list was passed to the Minister who, according to the rules, has the final say and is entitled to modify the list. The Minister's constituency was generally agreed to be a high need area and so it was added. This is ,in effect , a perk of office -you attain a high position -CEO,Minister, Director etc.-in any sector and you have the ability to move policy in a certain direction -subject to broad controls of course. It wasn't really any big deal . Roisin flouncing off in a shimmering cloud of principle was all very fine -but in reality if everyone was to constantly adopt this delicate approach to decision making -nothing much would ever get done.

I have no great regard for Shortall -she just sits on the sidelines preaching purity and perfection -anyone can do that . I believe she could have become Minister for Health after the last election when government formation talks were going on -but she ran for the hills . She constantly talks as if she has all the answers to the health problems in the country -but it's much more satisfying to moralise from the safety of the opposition benches rather than get your hands dirty actually trying to change anything.

Hotblack Desiato

This is ,in effect , a perk of office -you attain a high position -CEO,Minister, Director etc.-in any sector and you have the ability to move policy in a certain direction -subject to broad controls of course.

It's corruption.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361048#Comment_118361048

Norway and Iceland are not in the EU.

Alcoholics will spend more on their drink. I'm sure their families are thrilled at that prospect.

But anyway - what sort of animal would send out a leaflet to voters using Comic Sans??? 😲

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365746#Comment_118365746

That's a pretty severe judgement and unjustified in my view. Corruption undoubtedly exists in all countries . It is generally a behaviour that is hidden and involves extreme disadvantage for either a particular group or even an entire population. I doubt the Minister's actions fall into that category.It was done on the record and actually benefitted more people. Anyway -apart from a few egregious examples ,most corruption in Ireland is fairly petty and pales in comparison to what one finds elsewhere

Consider a case where an acute need has to be dealt with in Ireland . It will likely be in some Minister's constituency. Is the Minister then precluded from meeting that need -or they'll be excoriated for allegedly 'feathering their own nest' ? In fact I remember when the children's hospital location was being discussed .Blanchardstown was in the mix at one point. Leo Varadkar - Minister for Health for at least part of the time the NCH debate was raging- stated publicly that he felt he couldn't speak to the merits of the Blanchardstown case because it was in his constituency and his motives would be misconstrued.

The world is a messy place and politics is a tough business. Prating about 'principle' in every small-scale instance is as likely to be a hindrance as a help. There's not going to be any political utopia appearing anywhere any time soon -political paragons like Shortall notwithstanding.

PopePalpatine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365751#Comment_118365751

That leaflet header looks like an album cover for a Shania Twain wannabe.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365399#Comment_118365399

It was pretty blatant. The two locations in his constituency were not ranked in the top 20 by the HSE. He enlarged that list purely so he could add them. It was stroke politics at its worst.

The report by Paul Cullen and Martin Wall revealed that the HSE had originally identified a list of 200 potential venues, ranking each, before sending a list of the top 20 recommendations to the Department of Health.

However, the final list of potential venues published two months ago had been expanded to 35 towns – including Swords and Balbriggan, which were not among the list but which lie in Reilly’s Dublin North constituency.

The method of deciding the prospective venues for primary care centres was one of the concerns raised by junior health minister Róisín Shortall – who herself is responsible for primary care – during a Dáil debate on Reilly’s tenure earlier this week.

source

Here's a separate article on a speech that Shorthall gave at the time when she voted against a motion of confidence in Reilly. I only link to it because it includes a comments section which gives you a snapshot into the complains at that time (in 2012). Basically people were cutting the legs off her for not sticking with her principles and walking away from the job and the party. A month or 2 later she did just that. However you now have people in this thread cutting the legs off her for saying that she "flounced away" or "was a quitter" or "quit to save her own skin" or whatever. It just shows you that politicians cannot win regardless of what action they take.

Yurt2

As far as the 'no achievements' thing and criticising her for being in opposition, the Social Democrats are very well placed to be in coalition the post-the next election. Perhaps the second party with a degree of luck, but most likely the third. Shortall will be first name down for the health portfolio and she'll want it when others will run from it. Above all TDs she kept Slaintecare alive in the Oireachtas and did the front running on it.

The SDs were widely pilloried upon formation, but all signals point to them being there for the long-haul and a permanent fixture on the Irish political landscape - and that's whether you like them or not.

L1011

Interestingly (but indicative of nothing other than that), she would be one of the oldest Ministers ever if she got the portfolio in 2025; and I think the oldest (or second oldest) ever if held for a full term. She'd be 71 by that election if it doesn't get called early and then 76 at the end.

I think 73 is the record for a Minister - Noonan in Finance; or 77 if you count Dev as Taoiseach.

Hotblack Desiato

You'd kinda have to count Dev as Taoiseach - but he was long past his sell-by date by then. Lemass shoud've got the top job in the 50s - arguably we wouldn't have fallen so far behind the rest of Europe economically.

L1011

Life expectancy then was a shade under 60 I think versus 82 now, at that.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383604#Comment_118383604

Not so bad as that. Life expectancy at birth in 1960 was 67.98 years for a man, 71.21 years for a woman.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118346629#Comment_118346629

Yeah the SDs are a terrible party. Extremely amateur. They're like a party formed by former students unions presidents. They're very amateur. Often their documentation has silly spelling mistakes.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118414154#Comment_118414154

That is a sign they are not backed by huge funny money. You need money to look slick.

Would you prefer that dodgy money was backing them?

circadian

Always gets my first preference. Well spoken, direct and a good communicator. She is someone who has time and time again shown greater interest in integrity and what she believes to be good for the people of the country. James Reilly is a crook, I have family from Lusk and not one of them trust the man, she was absolutely right in dropping out and going independent.

She is currently trying to remove the swearing in of the state containing "To Almighty God", while not a day to day game changer it's progress and movement towards a more modern and inclusive country.

Shortall stands firmly behind her beliefs and in politics this is rare. She has campaigned for decades for Abortion rights, including being harassed outside her home by Youth Defence in the late 90's.

You can disagree with her political positions but you can't disagree with her consistency and honesty.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118414125#Comment_118414125

Slight tangent, but people often forget the "at birth" part of these figures, and interpret them as something like "In 1960, what age were old people expected to die at?"

A man born in 1960 will be 62 this year - his life expectancy is going to be a lot greater than 5 or 6 more years due to both medical advances over his lifetime, but also the mere fact he's survived this far while many of his less fortunate peers have not.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118372711#Comment_118372711

If she was so keen to make a difference as you say why did they refuse the chance to be in coalition back in 2020?

You are probably right in that they will do ok in the middle class urban areas but there is only one party that will be making gains in the next election and thats SF.

Give or take a seat or two either way they have got as big as they are going to ever be.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118414615#Comment_118414615

It also means they're an amateur party if they can't do a simple spellcheck before releasing documentation.

The soc dems are also sexist.

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118414615#Comment_118414615

M Clouseau, mighty inferences drawn there from some 'silly spelling mistakes'.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417616#Comment_118417616

Perfectly correct. Most people born in 1960 are still alive, so we still don't know what the average age of death for this cohort will be - we won't know that with complete accuracy until they're all dead. But, in 1960, it was predicted to be 67.98 years for men, 71.21 years for women

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417991#Comment_118417991

as big as they going to ever be

That's a bold prediction. Personally, especially given the past decade, I think making long-term predictions in politics is a fool's errand

10 years ago:

• Mitt Romney was battling with Rick Santorum for the Republican nomination while Donald Trump was preparing for Season 12 of the Apprentice
• David Cameron was seen as the safe pair of hands guiding the UK out of the recession. Exiting the EU was something only occupying the minds of certain crank back benchers and a party with no MPs - UKIP.
• Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael - much like for the previous 90 years were the largest party in government and the leaders of the opposition (even after the FF implosion in the previous year's election). The Labour party were just coming off of their best ever election.
• None of People Before Profit, Solidarity, the Social Democrats, Independents 4 Change, Renua or Aontu existed and the Greens had just been wiped out on a national level
• Lucinda Creighton was a rising star in FG and, along with Leo Varadkar, was being tipped as a future leader and potential first female Taoiseach.
• Stephen Donnelly, Eoghan Murphy, Ming Flanagan, Shane Ross, Clare Daly, Gerry Adams, Regina Doherty and Mick Wallace were all less than a year in the Dail (only 1 of them would be there a decade later. The one who got elected in 2011 with the most votes was one of only 2 of them to subsequently lose their seat)

Politics is like Weather forecasting. The longer the timeline the more worthless the prediction. There are just far too many variables.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417991#Comment_118417991

As seen previously with Labour and Greens entering a coalition with either FF or FG (even worse, both), it's suicide for a smaller party. The current coalition offering means you have a much better chance of at least making some change and challenging moves by the big two as an opposition. If they joined this coalition then they'd have absolutely no voice, just look at the Greens.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118420920#Comment_118420920

Well, forgetting about any bad blood between politicians, what could have been achieved would have been a tight coalition between Labour, SocDems, and the Greens on an agreed platform which they would force FF and FG to implement, and they would adhere to or walk. Those three parties have more policies in common than the various factions within FF or within FG.

If they could have held their nerve, they could have guaranteed their re-election, but that is asking a lot of politicians. Particularly when the bad blood comes into play.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421123#Comment_118421123

Yeah, like you say on paper they should be able to pull something together, even some independents/PBP types could row in behind but I would fear the ego of some would overtake reason, especially with previous bad blood.

For Forks Sake

One of Deputy Shortalls policys has finally made it into law, granted it's 10 years on and is about as popular as Covid, but hey.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30527547.html

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118364721#Comment_118364721

What has she done on a local level? I'm not trying to knock her, I'm genuinely asking for some specifics so I can understand how she has improved her constituency or on a national level. It is great that she is viewed as having integrity but what has been the result of that?

micosoft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356677#Comment_118356677

Your opinion and a poor opinion at that. The Nordics & Scotland have similar legislation. The heaviest drinkers in Ireland drink the cheapest beer. This policy has zero effect on people who drink moderately and primarily affects people who drink too much and create massive societal costs at a health, family, work level. As for your DIY buzzword bingo conspiracy "Politicians!" "Publicans!" yadda yadda. Fine. If this leads to both publicans who tend to be small businesses and craft breweries who tend to be small businesses doing well vs giant global breweries slapping out cheap slabs of Cider, fine. It is possible to have multiple good outcomes from a sensible policy intervention you know...

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118506580#Comment_118506580

Its not an opinion when its backed up by facts like the vintners groups lobbying at least 29 times for MUP while AAI and other health groups lobbied less than 10 and thats only since the lobbyist register was introduced in 2015 and nor does it take into account any unofficial lobbying done outside leinster house or the amount of TDs who are also publicans.

Our consumption has been dropping year over year for the past 2 decades while supposedly our alcohol has never been cheaper yet still remaining the most expensive in europe. Absolutely none of the facts surrounding MUP, its motives or how it became a political issue line up with it having to do with health.

If it was about health they would increase excise and ring fence the new tax income for addiction treatment and services instead of introducing what is effectively a punishment on poor people who drink and punishes even more some of the most vulnerable in society who are family members of problem drinkers while bringing in effectively no new money for the exchequer.

If you want to honestly dicuss this just read either of the 2 existing threads in after hours or the beers and spirits forums.

Sam Russell

Well, MUP is an attempt to reduce below cost selling by supermarkets. Just before Christmas, Tesco's and others were selling cans of Guinness and lager at 75cents per 500 ml, or pint. Now pubs price a pint of Guinness well above €5, so how come Tesco's can sell it for 75c? Well, they do not sell a can at 75c, they sell 24 cans for €18 - a single can cost well over €2.50. Now if MUP does one thing it will make slabs a thing of the past, and few multi-buys will be above an 8 pack or 6 pack.

Duty is charged on the alcohol content, and is paid at whatever price the alcohol is priced at retail. Now 18.6% of the retail price is VAT, and again that gets charged on the retail price, so an increase because of MUP goes to Revenue. Now they could have made the VAT on the incoming invoice not be refundable if it is sold below cost, but that is messy and likely to be against the rules.

They could have achieved a similar result if they had introduced unit pricing - that is one can or 24 cans are all the same unit price - no discount for a 24 can slab. No point in supermarkets using the slab as a loss leader - if they still had to have the single can at the same unit price, and they could not stop customers splitting the slab.

Will the likes of Dutch Gold disappear?

L1011

They DID introduce unit pricing/discount bans as has already been explained to you. Brewers responded by producing two different can sizes. It also actually reduced the price of single cans as most multi-buys were reduced to the multi-buy price, e.g. 3.50 cans sold in a 3-for-9 became 3.

Dutch Gold has been reduced in volume to make it appear cheaper. At 3.5%, its one of the weakest beers widely sold.

Sam Russell

I was able to buy a bottle of Jameson for €15 before Christmas which is just above the duty plus vat on that duty. Normally, Jameson sells well above the MUP that has applied since 1st Jan 2022. I think the effect will be the same as banning below cost selling.

There was below cost selling, a few years ago, of beef and then vegetables which came close to destroying both those businesses because supermarkets used their power to force suppliers to take some of the discount and reduced their slim margin - to probably force them into loss territory.