Róisín Shortall

I live in a 3 seat constituency where Róisín Shortall has been elected since 1992.

I can't seem to find a list of her achievements from searching on Google. Could anybody let me know why she has been re-elected repeatedly?

jamule

nada, nothing. got a cabinet position and shat the bed, chose her own political survival over actually having to make a hard decisions.

no ambition to go into government ever, hurl from the ditches.

Strumms

One reason is because she is a good communicator and more accessible to her constituents then other TD’s and candidates.

she was one of the first TD’s in the country to embrace social media as a means to engage with her constituents and the wider electorate. Before that she had ( maybe still does ) a very informative newsletter she went door to door with for people..

i don’t know enough about her achievements or maybe lack of them but the perception in her community is that she is one of the better candidates..especially regarding grass roots local issues…I wouldn’t be a fan of her national politics for the most part but speaking to my parents they’d always give her a vote and in the past I did too.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058222612/roisin-shortall

She has clearly monopolised the centre left vote in that constituency since Prionsiais de Rossa quit. There is clearly a major space in such Northside constituencies for her brand of politics, the TD herself doesn't have to be a stellar performer to entrench herself long-term.

Brussels Sprout

I can't speak for her constituents but I've always a lot of respect for Shorthall. She was in a bad situation in the Department of Health where she was being undermined by an incompetent minister. Ultimately she left the party over it. It's very easy to look back at that decision with the benefit of hindsight (given what happened to Labour in the 2016 election) and say she jumped ship to save her own skin but in 2012 that was a leap into the unknown and took guts. The easy decision would have been to just stick it out and continue to cash her ministerial cheques while complaining in private and leaking to the press like so many others do.

Furthermore she went on to create a successful new party. That's no easy task either - just ask Peadar Toibin or Lucinda Creighton.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118346596#Comment_118346596

Depends what you call successful, the SDs are getting nowhere outside the more well off urban areas.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058222612/roisin-shortall

A TD with a backbone.

Whatever grievances I may have with Shortall, I always respected her for refusing to stand by while Labour abandoned their voters in search of plump pensions.

jamule

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118346697#Comment_118346697

hahah, what utter shite, she jumped ship the first opportunity, no intention of leading , no intention to govern, she seen the **** hand anyone who had to govern at that time and shat the bed. as somone else said, she comes across as a very good communicator, but all she comunicates is just finger pointing.

Any achievements anyone could point to? There has to be something considering she has been a TD for almost 30 years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118346803#Comment_118346803

You need to brush up on your history.

She was Minister of State for Primary Care and working with that waster James Reilly for 18 months. This is the same James Reilly that would go on to take medical cards from sick children. The health service was being gutted and Fianna Fáil (rightly) tabled a motion of no confidence in Reilly. Even though she had been ignored for 18 months, she voted against the motion and intended to carry on with her work.

She resigned a few weeks later when she realised she had been spun a yarn and Fine Gael and Labour were irredeemable and were wholly intent of crippling the country with austerity.

She could have kept her head down in the trough but she stuck to her principles.

Wishbone Ash

Wasn't her resignation due to Reilly bending the rules to feather his own constituency with a much larger/better primary care center at the expense of another in a more needy area?

Brussels Sprout

Just think about it some more - It's extraordinarily rare that a minster steps down on a point of principle. Shorthall did it. Lucinda Creighton did it over that Abortion bill. Off the top of my head I cannot think of anyone else in the past 20 years. The only similar thing I can recall was Trevor Sargent stepping down as leader of the Greens (and almost certainly giving up the opportunity to be a full minister as a result) when they voted to enter into coalition with FF after the 2007 election.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118346900#Comment_118346900

I am genuinely curious what you would accept as achievements? For example does Mary Lou McDonald have any achievements in your opinion? Does Michael Healy-Rae have any achievements? How about Richard Boyd Barrett - does he have any achievements? They're all very different politicians but they all topped the polls in their constituencies despite never having been in government.

That is an unusual question.

How are people in her constituency better off as a direct result of an action she took?

Dempo1

Surely being relected time and time again by her constituency since 1992 is an achievement in itself. Don't know the lady but do think she does a decent job, infact I'm quite impressed at the SD generally, some excellent TD'S.

From a constituency point of view, she's clearly doing a good job given her electoral success and it was quite a brave decision to leave Labour who just seem to be utterly irrelevant, Aodhán Ó Ríordáin & Alan Kelly appear at times to be spokespeople for this utterly appalling government.

Peregrinus

How are they better off as a result of anything Dessie Ellis has ever done? And yet he has been repeatedly re-elected, and topped the poll last time around.

People may feel that they are better off if their concerns are listened to and articulated by their TDs. And they may feel that Shortall and/or Ellis listen to their concerns, and articulate them effectively.

VinLieger

Never forget it was Shortall who originally started pounding the minimum unit pricing drum and got the ball rolling on the atrocious legislation that is the public health alcohol bill.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354812#Comment_118354812

I was trying to ascertain what it is you think a good Dáil politician should be doing and you answered it. You want a parish pump style politician who's focus should be maximizing the returns for their constituency. From the list I gave you above Michael Healy-Rae would be the best example of that. He's famous for sorting out medical cards, planning permissions, "funeral packs", running buses for cataract patients and various other greasing of the wheels of bureaucracy in favour of his constituents.

Does Roisin Shorthall do these things? Frankly, I doubt it. I do know that some politicians prefer to focus their energy on national issues. They hold less face to face meetings with constituents, they don't show up at funerals and they try and spend more time in Dublin working on their committee work or on defending/opposing upcoming legislation. I suspect that these politicians are in the minority. After all you don't have to remind a TD that "all politics is local".

As for Shorthall, I would imagine that running a party takes up a lot of her time. She must be getting the balance right though since she has a stellar record in being reelected by her constituents.

beggars_bush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355559#Comment_118355559

so a minister in a health portfolio comes up with a health related bill...

isn't that, you know, doing your job??

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356215#Comment_118356215

It has nothing to do with health, they originally pushed it as an idea to help rural pubs combat the lower prices of off licenses and super markets selling cheaper booze, when they realised that the optics on that was really bad not to mention illegal under competition law they pivoted it to health. In reality the VFI and LVF lobbied FG hard for this.

All the evidence for this is available from FGs 2011 manifesto

Supporting Irish Pubs: Fine Gael recognises the importance of the Irish pub for tourism, rural jobs and as a social outlet in communities across the country. We will support the local pub by banning the practice of below cost selling on alcohol, particularly by large supermarkets and the impact this has had on alcohol consumption and the viability of pubs. 

Shortall while in Labour and part of the coalition pushed hard for it

Brussels Sprout

It has nothing to do with health

That's simply not true. You can certainly argue the reason for implementing the law in the first place but you cannot argue that putting a floor on the price of alcohol (or any product proven to be detrimental to health) will not have any health benefits. Will it wipe out the problem of alcoholism? No, of course not since that's a complex disorder with many variables, only one of which is the cost of alcohol. Will it reduce some future alcohol-related health problems? Yes, the studies are clear on this point:

Nearly all studies, including those with different study designs, found that there was an inverse relationship between the tax or price of alcohol and indices of excessive drinking or alcohol-related health outcomes. Among studies restricted to underage populations, most found that increased taxes were also signifıcantly associated with reduced consumption and alcohol-related harms.

source

Liberty_Bear

Shortall knows what side of her bread is buttered , throwing her hat into the ring for the SD's upon leaving Labour seeing the writing on the wall. An achievement does not have to be in concrete terms - i.e. getting a new hospital or some building opened, she does her job as one poster said she is an effective communicator. I do know she was in favour of alcohol minimal pricing which will not endear her to a youthful electorate.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357585#Comment_118357585

Then explain why this is not being done via excise? The vast majority of the price increases from MUP will go directly into Alcohol sellers and producers pockets with public finances seeing just a fraction. This has nothing to do with health.

Also can you explain why we still apparently have such a problem with alcohol that MUP is required while also having the second most expensive alcohol in Europe?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357585#Comment_118357585

Will it cause harm-transference to drugs instead? Based on Scottish data, yes.

It could have been done via excise; but isn't because that would hit the publicans and this is being done to benefit publicans not for public health reasons.

It could even have been done via below cost selling orders but Martin is unlikely to want to bring those back in when he often cites removing them as an acheivement!

Sam Russell

Setting a requirement for unit pricing so that any alcohol can only be priced as per unit, that is a single can or bottle is priced the same whether it is sold as one can or bottle or as a slab of 24 cans or a case of six bottes. This removes the pressure to buy excess(ive) quantities.

Currently Tesco are selling 24 slabs of various beers and stout at €18 and yet a single can costs €5 or so. Now I assume the slab is below cost. (The price applied the other day but the prices vary by day).

I think the level suggested for minimum price is too high - it should be set to discourage below cost selling, not to pass excess profits to retailers - it is anti-competitive..

boombang

Shortall always strikes me as one of our few principled politicians. I don't agree with her stance, but I do respect her. She stood up to Reilly even when her party didn't back her. As others have pointed, that's rare in Irish politics.

I believe she's kept up efforts on supporting Slaintecare even though it won't specifically be to her party's advantage. I think that show's somebody putting the Irish population's interests ahead of her own political interests.

Sam Russell

Yes, she definitely comes across as an honest and principled politician. Rare enough.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354825#Comment_118354825

It’s a seriously competitive and engaged constituency so to be there 30 years later is impressive… must be doing something right.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358249#Comment_118358249

A single can doesn't cost close to a fiver; unless its some hyper-specialist craft product that will not ever appear in slabs. More like 2.50.

€18 for 24 mass-produced cans might be below cost, but barely. The only alcohol that you can say for certain is below cost is the €12-13 bottles of spirits, as the cost of the duty plus VAT on the duty is more than the sales price!

And anyway, unit pricing as you suggest came in some time ago. The workaround is to put a different size can in the slabs (538ml currently) which you just don't sell in singles.

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358437#Comment_118358437

She was the prime mover in the genesis of Slaintecare and defends it without reservation in any discussions/debates.

It's a rubbish policy in my opinion; trying to introduce the NHS model into the HSE or displace the HSE with the NHS model. While the NHS in England is running into huge bottlenecks and budget overruns. I have never heard her questioned publicly about what the arguments for Slaintecare are. Surely we should look to countries with a relatively successful health service like Germany, Holland, Austrailia and NZ.

Sam Russell

I thought Slaintecare was based on the Dutch model, but perhaps I am wrong.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118360273#Comment_118360273

The FG proposal from 2011 was Dutch model. Slaintecare isn't; its basically an NHS copy with tweaks.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118360681#Comment_118360681

Oh, I did not realise that.

The NHS is falling apart because the Tories have started privatising it, which basically funds their funders.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357915#Comment_118357915

Here is what I said in my post:

You can certainly argue the reason for implementing the law in the first place but you cannot argue that putting a floor on the price of alcohol (or any product proven to be detrimental to health) will not have any health benefits.

Unless things have dramatically changed since 2018 in the Scandinavian countries, we don't have the second most expensive alcohol prices in Europe. That aside, I'm assuming the heart of your question is "If we already have relatively expensive alcohol in this country then how is making it even more expensive going to change things?". Where the price is right now is immaterial. It's all relative and the question is "what will happen as prices increase?". For some people (especially alcoholics) it won't change anything except for meaning that they'll spend more of their income on their alcohol. For another cohort, who are more price sensitive, the amount of alcohol they consume is proportional to how expensive it is. Put simply they drink less when the price goes up. That right there is the causal link between positive health outcomes and the price of alcohol.

Anyway, this has gone beyond the scope of a discussion on Roisín Shorthall.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361048#Comment_118361048

Conveniently ignoring my main question on why its not being done via excise or the previous rules that were already in place but were removed by Michael Martin? I dont believe it has gone beyond the scope as Shortall is one of the first people to put it forward and regularly shows support for it.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358706#Comment_118358706

Unit pricing means a 24 slab can be split and the price for one can is one twenty-fourth of the price for the slab. You buy the amount you want, not an increased quantity because of multi-buy pricing. No gaming the system by the supermarkets.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361323#Comment_118361323

I ignored it since I think it's of secondary importance. If health outcomes increase as the price goes up then that bill is good for health outcomes.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361470#Comment_118361470

What we have doesn't allow you to have a multi-pack opened. Could have been added to the legislation quite easily though.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361584#Comment_118361584

The result in Scotland was more drug use and more drug deaths. Just moves the responsibility to someone without a lobby group basically.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361711#Comment_118361711

Well, I have seen Tesco staff breaking up slabs to put them on shelves as unit cans, so if they can do it, so can the customer. If the can does not have a bar code then that is a problem. However, it is simple to have a voluntary agreement with the sellers.

Anyway this is going away from the subject.

Roisin Shortall was not the only proposer of this and other projects, but has been a national politician of great honesty and stuck by her positions even in the hostile environment on the Dail.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358552#Comment_118358552

Im not 100% convinced on her principles. She had vehemtly strong pro life principles while in the Labour Party but now is the opposite. I know people change opinions over time. Im really just not convinced of her sincerity on social liberal issues given her past stances would have been oppositional.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361719#Comment_118361719

Do you have a source for that claim? I'd be interested in reading more about that.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361834#Comment_118361834

Has to be stitched together as no government body is going to release a figure showing that their policies lead to increased harm. But there's been a very significant uptick in drug harm and deaths:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/30/drugs-deaths-in-scotland-soar-to-record-level

And the other much vaunted claim about it reducing crime hasn't worked out to any extent either:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-58871427

Moving problem drinkers - alcohol addicts, bluntly - to a cheaper but completely illegal vice is not going to benefit them or society. Drug treatment is more expensive than alcohol treatment too.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361762#Comment_118361762

That would have been shipping cases; or slabs being sold at 24x the price of a single (like they used to be, I remember the €50 slab!)

I'm not sure you understand our current regulations. It is not legal to sell 24x (or 2x, or 100000x) cans/bottles in multiple at any discount of the same multiple of the price of a single can of the same type.

This means that you get, for instance, slabs of Guinness using 538ml cans. They do not sell 538ml can of Guinness in singles - anywhere, ever. This sidesteps the law as there simply is no price for a single. And if you open up the slab you're going to be removed from the premises for damaging merchandise.

coastwatch

As SD spokesperson for Health (plus Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform), she comes across as articulate, well informed and on top of her brief, and offers constructive criticisim to government. Far more effective than her SF equivalent.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361879#Comment_118361879

That article is not evidence for your claim. It shows that drug deaths have been climbing since 2013. We cannot tell from that what the underlying causes for that rise. It does speculate that: " campaigners believe that multi-generational poverty, the normalisation of drug misuse and childhood trauma are the root causes of Scotland’s drugs crisis".

While we cannot give a definitive reason for that rise we can rule one thing out for certain. The MUP only came in in 2018 - 5 years after that drug death numbers shot up. It's safe to say that that's not the root cause of the issue.

L1011

There's more than enough there to suggest a link.

Its failed in its direct health goals, and consumption has not fallen by a significant amount. There will have been some diversion of sale to England just as there will be to NI here, meaning that the fall in sale will be larger than the fall in actual consumption. Those who are still addicted are spending more of their often very limited funds to purchase alcohol.

Even if such a system was worthwhile - and there is not enough evidence to claim that - you can get the same result by adjusting excise. But that hits publicans too and this is a publican promotion measure not a health measure. Never was never will be

Brussels Sprout

There's more than enough there to suggest a link.

Unless the MUP law was able to defy the laws of Physics and go back in time 5 years to cause the number of drug deaths to shoot up then no, there really isn't.

Honestly, 2 pages in and I'm still not sure what achievements there were over s 29 year career as a TD.

There is the potential introduction of two schemes that she has lobbied for being mentioned but what was achieved/done/delivered at any point in the past either for her constituency or on a national level where her actions had an impact on it?

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118364553#Comment_118364553

I think Shortall is probably no different from any other TD in the country.

She gets elected because the electorate in her constituency see her as someone that can primarily help them on a local level.

I'm sure Shortall deals with the same volume of requests and queries as ever other TD in the country.

Planning queries, passport queries, welfare queries, employment queries, local infrastructure (roads, transport) queries etc etc.

And that's not her fault, our weak local government plus the PR system with multi seat constituencies make it that way.

On a national level the reality is there is not enough national policy to go around.

A government will have 80+ TDs minimum and could have over 100.

Not all of them can be at the forefront of the introduction of national policy, the best the vast majority can do is sit on a committee and ask a few questions, and support government policy while going about their constituency work.

And opposition TD can do little more, sit on the same committees and ask a few questions, and oppose government policy and support the alternative policies their party advocates, while going about their constituency work.

So grading a TD based on their achievements at national level is not a good measure because many of them never get the chance.

Shortall was 20 years at it before she got her chance, she resigned on principal and set up a new party. That and now 30 years of local work is what gets her elected.