General Irish politics discussion thread

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643567#Comment_120643567

You've lost us. Sounds like you are arguing for abortion to be banned again so that other operations can be performed. Please correct me.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120641559#Comment_120641559

No they have a story that he was once seen driving his wife's car that hadn't been taxed for 8 months. It's a pretty pathetic cosgrave barrel scrape if this is the worst they can dig up.

Sam Russell

It is not an offence to drive an untaxed car under certain circumstances.

1. To take to an NCT test.
2. To rive it from an NCT test.
3. To take it for repair following an NCT test.
4. Was it definitely untaxed or just not displaying while awaiting the cert.

Not sure of others.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120644346#Comment_120644346

That's not what I'm doing. There already is abortion service provision in this country proportionate to the numbers of women in this country who decide to have abortions.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120640172#Comment_120640172

Your question was "Given the wide availability of artificial contraception, why would there be many women in this country deciding to have abortions?"

The answer to this is the same as to questions like:

• "Why don't people take more consideration into choosing their spouse and then we wouldn't need divorce?"
• "Why do some people have more children than they can adequately care for?"
• "Why do people take illegal drugs?"

People are complicated. They are often messy and illogical and they make mistakes. In an ideal world they wouldn't do these things but life doesn't work like that. We can either choose to be realistic about these things and build guard-rails into our system or we can puritanically set out to punish people for not living up to some ideal. We tried the latter in this country for over 70 years. I for one am happy that we are now trying a different path.

The more I see of Turkey's recent election the more certain I am that people who have left this country should NOT get to vote in our general elections.

People in Turkey are being held back based on the attitudes of people who are living comfortable EU lives away from a proto-dictator

Water John

That is a good point. The Turks living in Germany and The Netherlands voted mainly for Erdogan.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655605#Comment_120655605

We dont have the same system as Turkey.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655605#Comment_120655605

So you don't want us expats to get a vote because you don't like how we might vote rather than whether or not it's the right thing to do?

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657173#Comment_120657173

I'd argue that ex-pats shouldn't get to vote in Irish Elections because they don't have to live with the consequences of their vote - that's what I took from the OP also.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657398#Comment_120657398

A lot of us would like to come back and, even if we didn't, we still want what's best for Ireland.

@ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657398#Comment_120657398

Bingo. Turkey is in bloody freefall and those voting from the EU have to bear no repercussions for their vote.

@ancapailldorcha No, I do not think that emigrants (ex-pats... leave that to the English who refuse to class themselves as immigrants) should get a vote. They don't live in the society, they don't pay taxes, and they do not feel the impact of their decisions.

I would argue that people could/should get a time limited vote. 1 or 2 terms as they could easily be gone for short term employment or recession enforced. You stay longer than that? You've made your decision as where you want to live.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657142#Comment_120657142

Yes...

1percent

Re expats, I would create enclave constituencies using the same critiria as local ones. So new york may be a small 3 seater while africa may be a large 5 seater.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657428#Comment_120657428

With all respect - I'd argue you are very much the exception rather than the rule in terms of being in touch with the politics and current affairs in Ireland (demonstrated by yor engagement on here!). I've family members who've lived in Australia since the 1980s, and still "want what's best for Ireland", regularly speak to their siblings and friends still in Ireland, but when they come home to visit they show themselves to be woefully out of touch with what the country is actually like and what's going on here.

Opening voting to a diaspora who are quite possibly significantly less engaged and informed isn't something I consider to be appealing. Even having an ex-pat constituency with a couple of TDs could be problematic, as one or more of them could end up holding the balance of power following an election.

I do think some form of ex-pat representation in the Seanad could work - giving an official voice in the Oireachtas for ex-pats without any significant legislative power.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657428#Comment_120657428

And the Turkish, in Europe, would say the same but they don't have to live under Erdogan.

Those who would wish to come back is why I would say time limited voting rights. I'm sorry but the majority of people who left in 2008 have been gone too long and would not be really engaged with modern Ireland.

Given that most emigrants I know hate FF/FG, for forcing them out, it would suit me if they voted but that is not reason enough to allow people separated from their decisions to influence the country.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657481#Comment_120657481

Seanad and Presidential elections? No problem. A voice of the Diaspora is not a bad thing but that's enough. Decisions should only be made by the people who will have to live with the result

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657428#Comment_120657428

Sure. But the key point is that giving expats a vote gives them a say in making laws, and installing a government, to which other people will be subject but they themselves will not. There's an obvious democratic mismatch there. And the problem becomes particularly acute when you have a country like Ireland, a very large proportion of whose citizens reside abroad, and many of whom have never resided in Ireland.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657527#Comment_120657527

The volume of potential voters in the US would have given us Presidents in favour of physical force republicanism basically permanently. Absolute disaster for diplomacy.

Three seats in the Seanad is about all I think it would be safe to allow for overseas voters; or it would have to be time limited after actually living here

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660659#Comment_120660659

Sorry, when I said diaspora I meant Irish citizen emigrants.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660671#Comment_120660671

The problem here is that you are effectively creating two classes of Irish citizenship - citizenship by virtue of birth in Ireland, which carries voting rights no matter where in the world you live, and citizenship by virtue of birth to an Irish citizen parent, which carries voting rights only so long as you live in Ireland.

This is constitutionally problematic, since there is a constitutional guarantee of the equality of citizens. That rules out having first-class and second-class citizens, with the first-class citizens having more extensive voting rights. But even if you amended the constitution, I'd still say that the proposal was objectionable; equality of citizenship is fundamental to the idea of a republic.

We already restrict Seanad voting

Not a hill I'd be willing to die on, mind

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657428#Comment_120657428

Well when you come back you will get to vote, I never understood the logic behind this argument.

Also its admirable to want the best for Ireland but in my opinion once you are gone for more than a year I don't believe your objective opinion on how the country runs is valid anymore as you are getting your info from 2nd and third party sources ie family and media which no matter the best intentions will always have a bias and the longer you are away the more that bias can swing you from knowing and understanding the real truth of how things are actually going on the ground in the country.

Now theres maybe an argument for people in the UK to be more grounded as they can and do travel back frequently but to allow only them to vote would then mean we are making a grade of citizenship which others have pointed out causes issues with the constitution and equality of citizenship.

Personally I wouldnt even like non-residents to vote for president as due to our large emigrant demographic it could easily mean we end up with a president that the majority of those living in the country did not vote for and while yes at the heart it is mainly a ceremonial role they have an important constitutional duty and they do represent us as our top diplomat and I dont see any positives in the potential of that situation occurring.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657440#Comment_120657440

So, maybe it's the system and the structure of their government that is at fault, not the fact that some ex-pats in Germany get to vote.

Ex-pats getting a vote in their national elections is the norm across most of the Western world. Ireland is a complete outlier here in that we don't allow ANY votes for those who live abroad.

The likes of Sweden, France, Germany, Canada, Australia and so on, have not fallen into the clutches of a dictatorship because of this.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660480#Comment_120660480

Other countries have similar large immigrant populations like Ireland AND allow ex-pats to vote. Have there been any studies done on this impact on national politics?

A lot of what I am hearing is bordering on fear-mongering rather than anything concrete and substantial proved with data.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661929#Comment_120661929

Please give examples of those countries with verifiable stats that show their emigrant and eligible to vote demographic is close to the same percentage of their actual population as irelands.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661995#Comment_120661995

Well, as I mentioned Ireland is a complete outlier in not allowing any ex-pats to vote. In fact it's so bad, if you are out of the country for the day, you cannot vote at all, even a postal vote which is taken for granted in many countries cannot be done here.

But anyway, Greece allows ex-pats to vote from abroad. This was done recently, and now Ireland is the only EU country that does not all this function.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/greeceatlse/2021/05/18/crisis-and-change-the-right-of-greek-citizens-to-vote-abroad/

Other countries include.

Poland

Latvia

Estonia

Brazil

Philippines

New Zealand

..just to name a few

All these have a high diaspora abroad, yet allow voting from abroad.

Anyway, where are these other sources and data that will proclaim Ireland will fall under the clutch of a hardline violent republicanism dictatorship if we allow some of our citizens a vote?

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662697#Comment_120662697

Any info I can find estimates maybe 1 million Irish citizens now living abroad or around 20% of our current population can you show me comparable statistics for any other country?

As for your last point changing our constitution, the way we hold elections and redefining our democracy surely should require more reasoning than "yeah the worst probably wont happen"

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662728#Comment_120662728

There are over 750,000 Kiwis abroad, most living in Australia and the UK. They have a similar population to us.

There are approx 1 million Greeks living abroad, from a population of 10 million.

It was not I who started this debate, it was someone looking at Turkey, and because it's become a pseudo-dictatorship under Erdogan, that is apparently the reason why we should not let ex-pats vote in Ireland which is some leap to be fair.

All I asked for was data in relation to this proposition, but instead, it's more dodging of the facts, that in the mean, letting people abroad vote, won't turn Ireland into a dictatorship. It just jumping up and down with a bit of fearmongering attached.

What the saying from Carl Sagan,

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

Now, if you CAN provide some evidence that letting ex-pat vote in national elections, it turns stable democracies into pseudo-dictatorships because of the way the ex-pat community think, then please provide it. I'd certainly be interested in reading it.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662883#Comment_120662883

Okay so your argument boils down to others do it so we should too? Also NZ are the only country you have provided with close to a similar diaspora size with voting eligibilty as us, greece is only 10%. So you really havent proved anything, also you are the one arguing to change the status quo so its up to you to provide the evidence and valid reasons to do it, others are simply disagreeing with you while you throw straw men.