Paid cash in hand?

Brid Hegarty

So I did my first week of work last week with a new company as a bus driver for school kids. On Friday the owner paid me in the yard by taking taking out a big wad of cash and giving me €350 into my hand. I asked about there being a payslip and he said that if I wanted one to let him know. Said something about how he's not good with computers and that his some now does all that now that the accountant's gone. Having thought about it since I realised I should have also asked him if that was before or after tax! And what about showing my PRSI contributions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058221315/paid-cash-in-hand

I'm guessing you didn't get a contract either. Did you agree €350 - is that the correct gross?

Simply put, you're not employed. You are being exploited in the black market economy. You'll have no pension / PRSI, SW entitlement. But, there should be a lot of jobs out there.

In particular you'll not qualify for PUP either if that comes back.

Brid Hegarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272711#Comment_118272711

We agreed €300 but it ended up being €350 because he had me do some extra work. He'll have to find a way to fudge it when I ask him for a pay slip. So what's the best way for him to fudge it? Will he take money away from the €350 in my next payment?

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272711#Comment_118272711

Quite the assumptions you made based on what's posted. It's possible the OP is being paid in cash but is still being put through the books.

@Brid Hegarty Has your employer asked for your PPS number?

Brid Hegarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272748#Comment_118272748

Yes. Wasn't in rush about it but yes. I don't know if I need the company number for Revenue purposes. But when I gave him my bank details he said something about how he hasn't been using that method because of changing banks or something.

Tell me how

Get a new job. This guy only intends paying you cash, some weeks it'll be 300, some weeks it might be more.

You seem to have avoided the question of whether or not there is a contract. I'd be very doubtful that everything is above board and you are on the insurance policy to drive a school bus. Did he ask you to provide proof of a valid/clean license for this work? Were you Garda vetted before starting work?

If you are involved in an incident in which kids are injured, you could be in a very tricky situation if everything isn't absolutely 100% in order.

Brid Hegarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272764#Comment_118272764

I didn't get a contract. Forgot all about it to be honest. Yes I've been garda vetted, and have all necessary licenses so there's no issue there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272776#Comment_118272776

I’d push for a payslip. Find out who the accountant is and ask if it’s ok to contact them to arrange payslips to be emailed to you weekly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272748#Comment_118272748

Books? Payroll isn't done on books anymore, certainly not since it's now reported live directly to Revenue.

You're the one making assumptions. I'm literally taking the OPs words verbatim. Also, what gross payment would you need to be paid to get paid 350 net exactly? Give an example, use whatever assumptions you like. Or admit you haven't a scoobie what you are talking about.

happyoutscan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272795#Comment_118272795

You're as bad as each other.

OP check your revenue online under 'Manage my tax 2021'. If your employer is listed there (under 'Your jobs and pensions' , you can check what tax/PRSI etc contributions you have made.

The day of receiving payslips are gone as everything goes through Revenue anymore.

If there is nothing there on your Revenue, ask your employer when he is getting his bookkeeper/accountant to set you up as you wish to immediately look at your pension options etc (or anything else).

It is entirely possible that your employer just has not gotten around to it. I would not listen to those telling you to find another job until you at least find out what I've mentioned first.

Brid Hegarty

@[Deleted User] I'm guessing you didn't get a contract either. 

Well I mean I wouldn't be too worried about that. In reality there has to be a lot of small companies that don't give contract to their staff. Right?

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058221315/paid-cash-in-hand

You must know what rate of pay you agreed before you started the job so you can work out whether the cash you got is net after tax/prsi/usc. Nothing to stop a company paying in cash but most don't for practical or security reasons.

Employees are legally entitled to get a statement of wages (ie a payslip) showing the gross amount and itemised deductions for every payment received whether it's his son or whoever else processes the payroll and irrespective of him changing his bank account.

Edit: Employees are also entitled to get a written statement of core terms by day 5 and can request a Day 5 Statement. EE's are entitled to get a written statement of terms and conditions within 2 months.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272827#Comment_118272827

Dear God.

YOU ARE ENTITLED BY LAW TO GET A PAYSLIP. It has nothing to do with the new filing with Revenue. You might be thinking of a P60.

OP, you also need to get a contract of employment. Everyone should get one.

Look up citizens advice. The problem with boards.ie everyone can hit keys on a keyboard.

SVI40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272827#Comment_118272827

Pay slips are still a legal requirement. Revenue do not show deductions for health insurance, union fees, bike to work scheme, so may other deductions that may be made. Such a silly statement. SMH.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272795#Comment_118272795

How pedantic, You know exactly what i was referring to.

Have no interest engaging, you seem like a very angry individual, Your use of capitals in this thread is embarrassing

Mrs OBumble

You don't need to get a contract until a few weeks (maybe 4) after you start).

Think of what you got as a cash advance.

Do ask for a payslip each week. Yes, his son will have to do it.

Also do ask for their number so you can register for tax. Yes his son will have to get it. Again - no problem.

koutoubia

I drive a bus that is mainly used for a school run. I dont have a contract and everything is above board wrt Revenue and insurance.

You may have all the required cards BUT if the school run is a contract from a state agency then your employer has to go through the Garda vetting precedure regardless of whether you supplied one yourself.

If not and he is not a big operator I woud have concerns about how the business is run.

Ask for a payslip that can be confirmed by revenue otherwise walk away as no doubt they are cutting corners and you dont wanna find out the hard way.

A half experienced bus driver will walk into a driving job in the morning.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272764#Comment_118272764

doc22

Maybe he's going to class you as self-employed and you'll have to sort out your own tax by the looks of it

rolling boh

You are asking for trouble working like this get something else with your licence that should be easy enough to find something that is above board .

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272827#Comment_118272827

The day of receiving payslips is gone.... Lol. Absolute lollers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118273711#Comment_118273711

Don't call people out that know more about the topic than spoofers. I am angry at people not knowing the basics and acting like they do, especially if they have attitudes. The OP has a lot of signs of not being legit. Round sum payments. Let them know if you want a payslip. It might regularise, but you'd expect the employer to be forthcoming on that 'will get it sorted' not IF you want it sorted.

You should get the basics of your contract within 5 days. This is essential, what are your working hours, rates of pay, breaks etc. These are basic protections.

Brid Hegarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118274211#Comment_118274211

Thanks. Well this is the only experience I have as a bus driver... with this company! It's not that big a company. Main bus company in my town though... 14 buses in total.

Do you get holidays pay (8%)? I haven't asked yet but I'm almost certain I won't be getting it. I was told by one of the other employees there that it's not standard in the industry to pay holidays pay!

As an employee you are 100% entitled to holiday pay and bank holidays (that depends on a number of factors as to when and how much).

Min 20 days annual leave and 9 public holidays if an employee per year.

If you don't get holiday pay then they must be trying to treat you as self employed. BUT, he did mention the possibility of a payslip, which would lean towards employment expectation.

I would consider 14 buses as not a small operation.

There are a number of rules as to how employed and self employed are defined.

If he provides the bus, your insurance, dictates when and how you work and you can't arrange for someone to cover for you I'd suggest it likely you are employed.

koutoubia

Its very possible that you will be 'let go' during the school holidays hence no holiday pay which makes more it more important that you are paying tax so at least you can claim for the time you are off.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118275201#Comment_118275201

That's not how holiday pay works. If you work you accrue holiday pay entitlement for the time you work. It could be 8% (or higher, depends on the contract).

koutoubia

The poster is getting paid cash into the hand. If no tax is being paid then its highly unlikely they will get holiday pay. I am giving them the information as to what could happen as they are doing a school run like myself and thats my experience unless the operator has enough work out of school term to keep them on.

mickdw

Alot of responses here don't reflect the reality of working for a small privately run business. Yes, the law says you get payslip and holiday pay and you should have a contract but the reality is different.

This guy appears to have some cash income and he fancies having a driver working somewhat casually. It's happening all over. Driver will be told there is no more work at short notice if it suits the business.

He will be paid per shift worked. No more. No less. Probably won't work bank holidays but won't be paid for them either.

I'd advise going to work for bigger company.

the real worry is insurance to me. Who is responsible if the bus is crashed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276321#Comment_118276321

In the OP the employer mentioned a payslip if asked for. That suggests employment. It's not up to the person running the business to decide if the OP is an employee or self employed - payment in cash does not affect that decision. I've mentioned a few key tests above as to what constitutes 'for service' and 'of service' - here it is in more detail. See page 6

Going by what we know it would appear employment.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/self-assessment-and-self-employment/documents/code-of-practice-on-employment-status.pdf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276453#Comment_118276453

I agree there is some cash/under the table work being done out there, but only when both parties agree. An example would cash businesses like plumbers and taxi drives. Less so when one party wants the relationship to be official. Most small businesses would not take on someone that should be an employee and risk it going wrong. The risks are too great. As has been mentioned in this case Insurance would be a major concern.

Brid Hegarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276321#Comment_118276321

Are you getting the 8% holidays pay on what you work though?

koutoubia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276794#Comment_118276794

Its a little bit complicted but the short answer is that I get a full weeks wages even when I wasnt working over the summer.

I also get a payslip via email.

I have also been taken on as a full time driver in recent weeks as there is enough work to justify it.

If you want to pm me no issue.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276453#Comment_118276453

Are people allowed to pick and choose whether they pay income tax and PRSI because personally I'd love to hold onto what I'm currently seeing taken each month?

Also, if a business manages to hide cash payments from the taxman, what other outgoing payments are they hiding?

If a business such as the one the OP is working for, needs to pay employees under the counter, I would wonder what other corners are being cut to save costs. Are the busses properly maintained? Are they taxed and insured properly? Is the OP insured to drive the bus (or is the policy for "employees" only)?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118277459#Comment_118277459

Get your tax statement for a year and check how much you got paid for actual work and multiply by .08 to get a approx what you should have got for paid leave. Employees get 20 days minimum if they work full time for a year. If you only got a week's paid holiday (5 days) this suggests you only work the equivalent of 3 months full time.

happyoutscan

Sorry op for the wrong information. I don't receive physical payslips anymore so assumed it was the same for everyone (I thought I remembered being told something along the lines of what I told you).

I just check revenue for the info I need.

Hope you get it sorted.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276453#Comment_118276453

This guy appears to have some cash income and he fancies having a driver working somewhat casually. It's happening all over.

No doubt that is happening. But, generally not where someone is working with kids and driving a vehicle. IT still could be, but how do you think insurance or Gardai would react in the event of an accident if the OP wasn't actually an employee.

Insurance companies generally start by looking for a way to get out of paying out money, whatever the adverts might portray.

Housefree

Sign on the social as well if your getting paid in cash

Darc19

A lot of negative assumptions. He's an employer, he must be a crook. Similarly, someone is a landlord, they must be a bad one.

At €300 odd a week there is feck all advantage to either the employer or employee for a "cash" payment.

And what's a "wad of notes" - I had a "wad" of €1500 during the summer. Am I now a crook?

It's possibly a scenario whereas the employer gets the wages done monthly, but wants to ensure the employee is paid each week.

The employer quotes a net rate to the employee and let's the accounts person sort out the books. (Most accountants will still and always will call it "the books")

In small rural businesses, this still happens. Accountants don't like it as it takes more work, but it's a hell of a lot more common than city folk would think.

Sorry, that's bollix. Who quotes a net rate, when everybody is taxed differently? Different tax credits and tax bands. Every employee would cost differently.

I would strongly suspect those being "paid net" and "sorted at the end of the month" aren't in fact being put through "the books"* at all. THAT happens.

Is the OP one... she should at the very least consider it.

Also, if an accountant is talking to someone and has to resort to telling a client someone needs to be put "through the books" it's probably in the context of, 'you can't be doing that, they need to be put through the books' in a way some people need to be talked to in words of as few syllables as possible.

*happy?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281388#Comment_118281388

This is terrible advice, illegal and could have the OP in prison if it went on long enough and got discovered.

California Dreamer

€300 a week to look after my kids and others and make sure they get safely to school?

If this was my home town I would have a serious issue with this.

Now I question are the buses safe, passed DOE, insured etc.

Bikeboo

I drive school buses. You’re getting paid the average rate for a double run. Secondary and primary. May I ask if it’s a coach your driving or a minibus.

At €350 cash you are not making prsi etc. contributions.

If you have not been offered a payslip and he’s skirting around the issue you are a cash labourer.

14 buses isn’t a small operator.

Are you just being taken on for the 50% capacity rule which ends of dec 14th.

No one gets a contract for school runs. ( sad but true)

Bank holidays and Holidays generally aren’t paid even though it is a legal requirement for the 8%.

Driving school buses is considered a part time casual labour job. It’s usually done by retired people as an additional income and will rarely be a primary income.

If you are receiving any other state benefit then you are breaking all employee/employer rules (I’m not saying you are, I just know people that do and honestly it’s their own business) and that’s why you are getting cash.

You won’t get state sick pay, stamps for unemployment benefit of PUP if needed .

I hope that gives a little clarity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282305#Comment_118282305

She will be paying a small amount of USC - approx €185 per annum - assuming an average €350 per week. However, if she is laid off during the summer she'd pay less USC, but would pay some unless her pay was under €13,000 per annum.

IF schools closed due to Covid she'd be entitled to PUP per the below rates - Possibly €300.

Weekly PUP rate for people who lose their employment as a result of the COVID-19 restrictions from 7 December 2021

Average weekly earnings

Personal rate€400 or over€350 €300 - €399.99€300€200 - €299.99€250€151.50 - €199.99 €203 Less than €151.50€150

Re Cash Labourer - is what you mean a black market cash under the table arrangement? This would be illegal. And before someone jumps in 'This is the country, bhoy!' That won't stop her or you getting into a heap of trouble if involved in an accident. The bus owner may say you were self employed. Then whose insurance pays? I suspect the company insurance will still cover you, if the company owner has the bus covered under fleet insurance and you are over 25 and have a full licence, but I'd not like to be in that position.

heretothere

The only thing is to ask you employer for a payslip. Has he asked for your PPS number? If he is giving you cash in hand he will be paying for the tax.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281833#Comment_118281833

It does happen, I did my training in practice and had a few clients who gave their employees, cash in hand at the end of the week. I told them time and time again not to agree a figure into the hand as tax credits/bands change or can be transferred or worse the person might be on emergency tax. He still did it, and usually only gave me the weekly figures once a month. So it is possible to have a perfectly round figure for your net wages, the employer just pays whatever the tax is.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281897#Comment_118281897

It's not a full time job though. Maybe 4 hours per day.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283341#Comment_118283341

You'd expect fools like that to be very much the exception rather than the norm. And can you imagine them being in business long, especially someone that got the correct advice to change? If I worked for them I'd give my wife all my tax band and as much tax credits as possible (which is everything bar the personal tax credit). Would be the best employer ever.

^^^ was meant to quote heretothere - can't fix it with edit.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281833#Comment_118281833

Employers in the farming industry often quote net.

Again more assumptions.

heretothere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283666#Comment_118283666

The few clients I had that done that sort of thing were all tradesmen of some description. It never happened that one of the lads working for them transferred all their credit to their wife, but I did warn him it could happen. Did have the odd issue with emergency tax, but once the was sorted the employer would get the tax back anyway. He has been in business for decades. I suppose if one of the employees had transferred all his credits I'd have flagged it and he would have had to change the way he paid that employee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283872#Comment_118283872

You'd multiple clients that did this? I think this says more about your clients than small businesses in general. I highly doubt someone running 14 buses can afford to be blasé about the tax being paid.

Never came across it when I worked in practice - But, we had an excellent tax department that would probably not allow a client to do that. It would be thanks, but you might want to take your business to X accountants.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283832#Comment_118283832

I think you're mixing up cash in hand for casual labour/self employed (sort out your own tax lad) that never gets reported to Revenue with proper employment.