Paid cash in hand?

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283979#Comment_118283979

No I'm not, Some employers would quote salaries in net, but payslip would reflect gross.Unusual practice i know but it does happen.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284110#Comment_118284110

Then it's one anecdote versus another. The farmers I know would be very shrewd and wouldn't leave their costs open to such. Why do you think this is common in farmers? I can understand some having seasonal/casual worers that may not always be remembered to be properly accounted for, but that's not what you're saying.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284110#Comment_118284110

Also, more to the point. Which do you think is more common - an employer paying net and calculating the Gross and costs later or someone paying a round sum amount and not declaring?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281432#Comment_118281432

The employer quotes a net rate to the employee and let's the accounts person sort out the books.

Seriously, do you really think this might be the case? You think an employer who has admitted to struggling with managing payroll sufficiently to the point of not being able to provide a payslip is working out tax responsibilities on the fly?

And stop making rural business owners out to be as if they can't comprehend or manage basic business practices. You think you're standing up for such people, you're doing them a disservice, and anyone else reading this who might be wondering what they are entitled to or what they are responsible for.

heretothere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283963#Comment_118283963

Not many, but a few. There was nothing wrong with those clients.

From the way you phrase it sounds like you didn't work in the tax department so how would you have come across it? I did my training in a mid-size firm in a large town but with a lot of rural clients. We didn't have a tax department but just did the payroll for our own book-keeping/ accounts clients.

Tell me how

OP, once again, in a short space of time, you're working life is generating a lot of conversation. It's not normal to find oneself in situations so frequently that don't seem to be normal/best practice.

Maybe consider trying to find a reputable, decent employer who you won't be wondering are they trying to mistreat you or pull a fast one and you can take the lead from your colleagues as to what is normal and acceptable pracitce. I do appreciate Covid might be impacting the jobs market right now, but you shouldn't need to stress so much over the employers obligations at work. And definitely not across successive companies.

TefalBrain

I run a small bus company with a fleet of 8 buses based in Dublin OP. The going rate is 300 this school term for around the 20hrs max most drivers do about 15hrs driving per week with the kids on board. Most of my drivers get about 285-290 as you pay feck all tax on that if it's your only PAYE position. If you are getting paid 350 good for you but i'd still demand a payslip and confirm you are paying tax as otherwise you will be accumulating zero credits. You are also entitled to education sector workers social welfare for any school holidays including the summer break which you will not get without credits so over the course of the year you will actually be down money if paid cash into hand.

If your employer is half decent they would have explained all of this to you in advance of taking up the position.

Brid Hegarty

He just rang me there to tell me that it's off again tomorrow due to the storm Barra issue. I asked him about the €350 and whether it was before or after tax. He didn't seem too sure but basically said that seeing as we initially agreed €300/wk (which we did), that anything extra he gives me will be out of his own pocket.

Brid Hegarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284779#Comment_118284779

I got the €350 because I did two extra evening runs (secondary schools) I had sat in on a few runs for training. Do you give your employees the 8%? What's the situation with bank holidays? And do your employees get a contract?

One of the other drivers for this company told me that it's not standard in this industry to be holidays pay. And this might make sense to me giving that another company I interviewed with, said that the holidays and bank holidays pay is included in the aforementioned price. I suppose they kind of had to say that no matter what!

Darc19

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284173#Comment_118284173

Instead of bashing everyone that is telling you this happens, why not call a few rural accountants?

They will tell you exactly what multiple people have told you here.

They agree a net amount with someone and let the accountant work out where the gross is

Accountants dealing with small rural businesses will have a good idea of what the gross should be.

And the number that do this is a hell of a lot more than you would ever think.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286305#Comment_118286305

Bashing everyone. First of all I've corrected numerous factual errors since this thread started. Care to summarise what you've added?

And no, I refuse to think rural accountants deal with a significant number of gombeens.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286305#Comment_118286305

Also, the only thing of significance to this thread - see post 59 - is that the OPs boss was NOT paying net and calculating the wages afterwards. So, what some rural accountants seemingly have to put up with is irrelevant.

TefalBrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286274#Comment_118286274

Employees are paid holiday pay works out about 12 days per year as they are classified as full time part time workers also paid for bank holiday yes.

Every single driver gets a contract after the month trail period and wage slip emailed every week. I can't stress enough how important it is to make sure you are on the books and paying tax as it protects you in all sorts of ways.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284173#Comment_118284173

It's not one anecdote against another because unlike yourself, I don't care whether you agree with me or not.

Another poster made a comment which you put down as a load of bollix, when in fact it wasn't. The reason i know it's common because I'd be pretty confident i have a lot more experience with farmers than you do,and this is the way they operate. I'm not talking your stereotypical 70 year old farmers, I'm talking men with anywhere from 250-1100 cows. And last time I checked you have to be fairly shrewd to run them operations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286424#Comment_118286424

It's good you don't care that I don't agree with you.

Anything to add to the OP - maybe you should ask if the person paying her is a farmer.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286305#Comment_118286305

Instead of making excuses for people who aren't following the law, why not realise that the OP is entitled to absolute transparency in terms of what they are being paid, and what tax is being withheld on their behalf.

Just because you think plenty might be doing (including yourself I'm guessing) doesn't mean that it is either legal, or acceptable in all cases.

I do love how any single occasion cash payments are mentioned the person who doesn’t take card/pays employees in cash/only takes rent/whatever in cash etc etc are tax dodging scumbags by default.

yes, that’s exactly how it works.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286475#Comment_118286475

You do realise certain industries are rife with it. There's significant anti money laundering legislation to deal with it. It's not as if it doesn't go on. There's even one or two on here admitting it in the OPs industry. Don't blame the messengers.

Is everyone dealing in cash doing it? No. But, you'd be naive to think it's not an issue. Also bear in mind, it's expensive to deal in cash and there's significant security issues (internal and external).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286508#Comment_118286508

I didn’t say it wasn’t an issue but it seems to be the default assumption when cash is mentioned and I dare say there’s a minority at the illegal craic compared to the ones who just rather deal with cash. Recognition a problem exists is one thing but blanket assumptions everyone is at it is another.

I think it’s just sad to see people are assumed guilty of something without any kind of evidence simply because others are.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286458#Comment_118286458

What law are you referring to?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286761#Comment_118286761

You have a right to get a payslip with every payment of your wages, either when you get paid or shortly after. ... You can get your payslip on paper or electronic format (for example, as an email attachment). Your right to a payslip is in Section 4 of the Payment of Wages Act 1991

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118274852#Comment_118274852

Lots of old school types like to pay a net wage IE. The 350 agreed - that doesn't mean it's not being grossed up on a payroll system and filed with revenue. The op should ask her employer straight up.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286798#Comment_118286798

My mistake, I thought you were referring to paying a net wage.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286812#Comment_118286812

Old school types?

LIKE MONEY LAUNDERING GANGSTERS IS IT?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286812#Comment_118286812

She has. He said he's not sure what the payment was supposed to mean - I think we can read between the lines there.

Just wondering, you do realise the inherent risk here and no, I can't believe there's so many old school (by definition long surviving) reckless employers out there.

Can anyone point to a job advert that quotes net payment?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286761#Comment_118286761

Seriously? Just seriously. And you say you were an accountant?

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1991/act/25/section/4/enacted/en/html

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286850#Comment_118286850

No by old school types I mean sole traders - one man shows. Not everyone has an accounts and HR department you know. That doesn't mean they're crooked and run illegal businesses. They touch base with an accountancy practice when returns need to be made. This approach is common with tradespeople, farmers, small shopkeepers etc.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286879#Comment_118286879

Did i? When?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286913#Comment_118286913

Go away and troll somewhere else.

Do you have anything constructive to add to the OP.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286812#Comment_118286812

I work in an accountancy practice and I can assure you clients contacting us once a month saying I paid this guy 500 euro X date, y date etc. Is not unusual Ive a pain in my arse explaining to them that they shouldn't do it this way but they do again and again and again. I know it's wrong but they can't see the problem - in alot of cases it's working out more expensive for the employer. I'm talking about builders, carpenters, electricians, shopkeepers, farmers etc. Believe me it's common.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286924#Comment_118286924

Questions an incorrect statement, Must be trolling. What a headbanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286930#Comment_118286930

You've pretty much listed the occupations that are known for transacting in cash to avoid tax. Off hand the only ones you left out were plumbers and not sure about shopkeepers in general. I can imagine a scenario where someone paid cash to someone for work and then had to back track on that - the OP is possibly a case in point, 'ask for a payslip if you want one.'

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286944#Comment_118286944

Apologies, you're a farmer expert. Thanks for adding your tuppence worth - I'm sure the OP has taken great benefit from your farming insights. Next time you're talking to a farmer that quotes net wages point out where he could be taken advantage of. At least that way you and your farming acquaintances will have benefited from your input into this thread.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287024#Comment_118287024

I'm shocked you acknowledged you made a mistake. Look at you acting like an adult, You didn't even use any capital letters.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286895#Comment_118286895

I was taken piss I know what you mean and it’s exactly where I’m coming from as well. Plenty of older people especially just rather do things the way they’re used to but to then be viewed as a criminal based on that action as though it were the norm is shocking to me.

people who work primarily or exclusively with cash dodge taxes, yes. Obviously not ALL people, much in the same way you wouldn’t assume a farmer with a hunting rifle was a murderer, cos people use guns to kill people..

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286965#Comment_118286965

I dont think you are getting the point - they are not avoiding tax. Some are paying by cash and some are paying through the bank - whichever suits them best. What they are forgetting to do is contact their accountant when they make the payment to the employee ( which is what is required). They only contact their accountant every so often and then maybe hand over bank statements, cash book, cheque book etc from which the accountant then makes the payroll entries.

Some of these guys are plain thick when it comes to paperwork- thats the bottom line. However they do want everything done correctly tax wise - payroll just may get done a little later than it should.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287054#Comment_118287054

That there are elements of niche industries that may be backward enough to conduct their affairs in a shoddy manner is still the exception to the vast majority of how businesses operate (find me a job advert that advertises Net pay?).

And, for the umpteenth time, the person paying the OP doesn't appear to be in that category. They are hoping the OP will take their cash and go away. Would that assumption hold up in a court of law based on solely what the OP said, probably not - but, if it walks and talks like a duck...

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287088#Comment_118287088

Backward enough? That's your opinion. I don't need to find you a job, I'm not sure I'd be able to and I don't care to take the time to prove a point. I was simply pointing out that what you said was incorrect. That employers quoting net pay was a load of bollox. Two other posters with experience in accountancy have also told you it happens. If you're still too ignorant to accept it, Fair enough.

As for your second paragraph, That's your interpretation, And that's fine. You may well be right.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287088#Comment_118287088

What I can’t understand is how someone admitting they’re bad with computers and being a bit slow to get some things done leads you to infer they’re just trying to get the OP to take the cash and piss off?

how are you failing to see the gymnastics you’re doing to demand this guy is guilty of something because he does things the old fashioned way?

you’ve come to boards, read the OP and without a doubt in your mind are happy to demand this employer is a tax evading scumbag? The only way I could find this situation anymore ludicrous were if it turns out you’re a tax dodger yourself. 😂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287183#Comment_118287183

"In 2010, a total of 2,900 people were directly employed on dairy farms in Ireland; this figure jumped by 1,200 to 4,100 in 2016, the CSO stated. "https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/employment-levels-on-dairy-farms-rose-by-41-over-6-year-period/

These are statistically minuscule - a blip in total employment in this country. Then how many of this small number have employers are archaic enough to quote net pay, or not have enough trust in their accountants to bring them into the 20th century? Irrelevant.

Have a talk with the two lads, ye probably know the same farmers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287200#Comment_118287200

Try not to take it personally. It's a thing https://www.thejournal.ie/booming-black-economy-killing-small-business-533041-Jul2012/ . Also, people on this thread have said they work for people in THIS industry and get paid cash - Cash labourer they called it.

As I said above there are signs that this may be the case. You don't need to have spent time in audit, but it probably helps.

BTW, do you think all tax evaders are scumbags - what about someone struggling to feed their family, pay the rent and does the odd nixer? Do you think they are scumbags? I wouldn't call them scumbags.

As for me, you can speculate all you like - you, no more than myself, are posting anonymously. I came on this thread to offer the OP advice (I think she's being badly treated as are others who seem to think they are not entitled to normal holiday pay - where's your uproar about that?) I corrected numerous factual mistakes by others. And yet, some on here took umbrage against an unnamed person that works in an industry where it's stated under the counter payments are made.

I'll ask you the same as others - what have you contributed to the OP?

I contributed an alternate point of view to the wild speculation and demands they are working for a tax dodger.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287771#Comment_118287771

Totally irrelevant.

Yes it may be a small sector, But that doesn't prove it doesn't happen, That's the point I made. Not to mention the fact other posters have experience with  builders, carpenters, electricians, and shopkeepers, so it's not just the agricultural industry.

As for what myself or other have contributed to the OP, I don't know the answer to that, You'd have to ask the op. But based on your tone I'd suspect you'd be of the opinion that you have contributed a great deal. All I've seen is assumption after assumption, and childish outbursts. F*ck all really

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287921#Comment_118287921

Point of view, so it was speculation. Because it cannot be proven either way. They may be like the other bus "employers" on this thread and do threat their workers badly or they may be entirely 100% honest businessmen. "wild speculation" despite all that's been said on the thread. I think it's obvious which we both think most likely.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287943#Comment_118287943

So you don't understand what the thread has discussed. That's okay, you're not an accountant, so maybe it's unfair to expect you to. And I've covered the other areas. There is a probability being applied here.

But, let me add my own tuppence worth to your contribution, you've pointlessly helped set the thread off on a tangent, so you've done worse than not help the OP, you've hindered her, just so you could attempt a 'GOTCHA!'. 😏

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288948#Comment_118288948

If you say so fella 😉

I enjoyed this, Unlike yourself it doesn't bother me if a random person on the internet agrees with me or not.

Brid Hegarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286416#Comment_118286416

Thanks Tefal,

Yes I'm on the books as I could see from logging into revenue. I can see there what's being deducted etc, so I mightn't need a payslip. My dad does school collections with a VW Caddy and he doesn't get pay slips (or have a contract) but his holidays pay is accounted for. I don't expect that I'll be getting holidays pay! I don't know yet if I intend to ask for it, but I might be looked at if I've two heads. What do you think?

TefalBrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295107#Comment_118295107

Well you are entitled to holiday pay by law even as a part time worker and since you are registered with revenue your rights are protected. Our drivers can't take their holidays during the school term for obvious reasons unless it's an emergency etc... It's only my opinion but i'd be asking for the holiday pay unlikely they'll say no and with the shortage of drivers out there at present they should be doing all they can to keep you.

Brid Hegarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295307#Comment_118295307

Thanks,

I must also ask. In the case of the storm we just had; do bus eireann still pay you (the business) for those days off. And should your employees be paid for those days?

TefalBrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118300176#Comment_118300176

Yes Brid we have a contract with Bus Eireann for the entirety of the school term. Once we are available to fulfil the contract we are paid.

As an example 2 of our buses where off the road recently because the children's personal assistant was sick (one with covid and one with a different issue) and as the buses can not run without an assistant the drivers where sitting at home getting paid instead of collecting the kids. In this case the onus is on the school to provide an assistant for the kids not on us as a contractor as the department of education fund the schools to provide said assistance. One of our drivers actually spent 8 weeks off the road a few years ago on full pay as the school failed to get an assistant for that particular bus run.