driving with a UK provisional license

aegle

I was driving with a UK provisional license in Dublin and was caught in an accident. A UK provisional license holder is forced to have no insurance in Ireland as no vendor offers insurance cover. The result is that I was driving with no insurance and driving with no license. Can someone advise what will be consequence in a court?

L1011

A very significant fine and a driving ban most likely. The max punishment for both offences is imprisonment.

A UK provisional licence is completely irrelevant here so its not a case that a holder is forced to have no insurance, a holder has no ability to have insurance. Or drive.

.42.

Driving Ban and Fine I would think.

Glaceon

You're not allowed to drive on an Irish learner's permit in the UK so I assume the reverse is true. This is probably why you can't get insurance cover.

aegle

I moved to Ireland in July with a UK registered car. The car was re-registered with an Irish plate. I am a bit scared. Do you think a solicitor can help to ease the consequence?

Shield

Nobody “forced” you to drive without insurance. That’s something you chose to do. As you’ve already been told, expect a driving ban and a fine at a minimum. If the accident was your fault, you were not insured, so expect that to be an aggravating factor.

afatbollix

Failure to have motor insurance or driving without insurance in Ireland is generally punishable by:

• A fine of up to €5,000
• 5 penalty points; and
• At the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding 6 months.

The court may decide that you be disqualified from driving instead of incurring penalty points. In that case, you will be disqualified for 2 years or more for a first offence and 4 years or more in the case of a second offence committed within 3 years of the first.

If you don’t have a current licence, and your driving licence expired less than 12 months before the offence took place, you could be fined up to €1000. If it was more than 12 months since your licence was valid (or if you never had a valid licence), you could be fined up to €2000.

If you drive while disqualified from driving, or you are required to produce a certificate of competency or certificate of fitness before getting a driving licence but you fail to do so, you could be fined up to €6000, or be imprisoned for up to 6 months, or both.

What yer getting is screwed, And rightly so. If it's your first offence I wouldn't be packing your toothbrush but I hope you can afford the 6k fine you'll prob be getting.

.42.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248140#Comment_118248140

are the Guards involved?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248140#Comment_118248140

I wouldn't even consider going to court without a solicitor experienced in the subject.

Also be prepared for the MIBI to seek to recover from you any costs they bear in paying for the other drivers repairs/costs.

aegle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248171#Comment_118248171

Yes, a Garda came to the scene and asked my details.

Shield

Hey @foreign any comments or thoughts on this one?

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248140#Comment_118248140

You cant drive on a provisional licence in the UK either unless accompanied by a person with a full licence.

reubenreuben

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248207#Comment_118248207

Very true. What was the OP thinking? No excuse tbh

aegle

driving without a license automatically leads to driving without an insurance. In this particular situation, will driving offence be 'driving without a license only' or 'driving without a license and an insurance'?

If the offence is only driving without a license, will court become mandatory?

Atlantic Dawn

Driving without insurance is dealt with in court, it will trump not having a licence...

Insurance

You must have motor insurance to drive a car in your own name or as a named driver on someone else's policy. If a Garda asks for your insurance certificate, you must provide it within 7 days. Offences for driving without insurance are prosecuted in court. Failure to display an insurance disk carries a fixed charge of €60 (rising to €90 after 28 days).

If you drive while uninsured, you could be fined up to €5000 and get 5 penalty points. You could also go to prison for up to 6 months. The judge may decide to disqualify you from driving instead of giving you penalty points. You can read more in our document on ‘Motor insurance’.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/driving_offences.html#l011a8

.42.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248341#Comment_118248341

I think you will get a summons for court.

Do you mind me asking where you the cause of the accident?

Was the car taxed in Ireland?

BuildTheWall

How can an Irish court put a driving ban on a UK licence? Probably most they can do is a fine and hold a record of you in case you ever try and exchange the UK licence for an Irish one.

Yurt2

Barry Cowen up to his old tricks again I see.

aegle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248373#Comment_118248373

the car is taxed, NCT registered

afatbollix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248396#Comment_118248396

You are added to the Irish system if you try to get an Irish licence that you have a ban.

Since the UK & Ireland share this info now you will be banned in both countries.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-mutual-recognition-driving-disqualifications-ukireland

Car99

If you can prove you had a difficult disadvantaged upbringing you'll be grand.

CiniO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248396#Comment_118248396

Is the ban related to a licence, or a person?

My thinking was that it's a person who is banned.

OP doesn't even have a licence in UK and his provisional is not recognised here.

aegle

Driving without insurance may lead to a ban on driving.

The penalties for driving without license are a maximum fine of €1,000 if your licence had expired for a period of less than 12 months. In any other case the maximum fine is €2,000. If you were disqualified from driving at the time of the offence the maximum fine that may be imposed is €6,000 together with a maximum custodial sentence of 6 months.

I don't see a driving ban on consequences for driving without license.

L1011

There isn't a ban for driving without a licence, but you are are on a hiding to nothing if you think you can argue that the uninsured charge isn't relevant due to not having a licence.

You will be charged with both. There is absolutely no angle to argue away the insurance charge.

A solicitor won't let you try it. If you tried that on your own, there'd be an increased chance of being sent to prison by a pissed off judge.

aegle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249616#Comment_118249616

My understanding is that driving without insurance means that the person is able to have an insurance cover but he chooses not to. The person is willing to not have insurance. In my situation, I thought that UK provisional license is a valid one. I am not able to buy any insurance cover even though I want to buy one. So I am unwilling to. One is active. Another is forced. See OP. Does this make a good argument?

Ljmscooter

Deserves to get absolutely reamed

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249953#Comment_118249953

You did chose to drive without insurance, you had the choice to not drive.

Its an absolutely awful argument. No solicitor would let you try it.

afatbollix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249953#Comment_118249953

A provisional licence is not valid out of the state it was issued so of course you couldn't get insurance. You have been driving with no licence in Ireland.

Using that excuse won't work with regards to the insurance as it's not up to the state to make sure you follow the rules just enforce them when you don't keep to the rules.

Henry Ford III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249953#Comment_118249953

You need to rethink that I'd suggest.

Driving without a valid license and insurance are serious offences. You really have no excuse.

loyatemu

whether you feel you were "forced" to have no insurance or not (which is a nonsense argument IMO) is irrelevant. You clearly knew you were uninsured and drove anyway.

I don't buy that you didn't know your UK learner permit wasn't valid either - who wouldn't at least check such a thing, particularly after learning that insurance companies won't cover you (if you even rang them, your whole story sounds totally dubious if any of this really happened).

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250059#Comment_118250059

No, no, no...

I propose we let the OP run with this interesting line of thinking and see how it plays out.

As long as when the summons is received they give us a heads up on the Court and date? Because I really, really want to be in the gallery for that!

D3V!L

OP, can you keep us all up to date with your court date. I'm going to attend this one.

aegle

I didn't realise how serious this event became. I just moved to Ireland in July. Very stressful. Thanks anyway for thoughts and suggestions.

loveall

Sorry OP but did you really think you wouldn't get caught? Must be a nice enough car if you bothered bringing and re regging it. How did it fair in the accident? Nope....no sympathy and I doubt a judge will have any either. Again, sorry.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250274#Comment_118250274

heads up on the Court and date? Because I really, really want to be in the gallery for that!

Is that not in breach of restrictions? Or have they been lifted enough to allow for folk to just go along (like they should've been for the last twenty months) to the district/circuit court,,

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250386#Comment_118250386

Accept you made a mistake and take responsibility for it. Make a peace with what may be coming to you (large fine, probably a ban). You have no way to argue out of this. Apologising profusely seems to be the only choice (and the way to not piss off the court if there). Once you accept this, hopefully your own stress levels abate somewhat.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249953#Comment_118249953

your understanding is incorrect. The legislation states that you must have an approved policy of insurance (it does also mention an approved guarantee but that doesn't apply to you). The word "must" in legislation makes it very clear that being unable to obtain insurance because you do not have a licence is not an excuse.

ELM327

There's no such thing as a provisional license. There hasnt been for at least 10 years.

You either have a license (after passing a driving test) or a learner permit (to enable you to learn to drive with a fully licensed accompanying driver). A learner's permit is legally equivalent to no license. You do not gain a license until you pass the driving test.

Therefore you could (and IMHO hopefully will) be prosecuted for driving with no license and also driving uninsured. There's potential jail time for both offences.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250507#Comment_118250507

There's no such thing as a provisional license. There hasnt been for at least 10 years.

they had a UK provisional licence. about as much use here as a chocolate teapot but a real thing none the less.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248443#Comment_118248443

Here's a single €14.75million payout on behalf of an uninsured driver, these are paid for by levies on the premiums of insured drivers. So no sympathy.

If you want technicalities we don't use "provisional licenses" in this country.

You didn't have an Irish Learners Permit.

You don't even have an EU equivalent. Even if you did regulations vary by country which means only the full licenses are usable elsewhere. For example the Italian foglio rosa is only valid for 5 months while in Ireland for some licenses you can't even sit a test during the first six months.

You may have heard of Brexit ? Essentially it means any previous EU rights for UK documents where thrown out by the UK. So you had no basis for believing your licence was valid here. Any rights have to be given by separate legislation like for the reciprocal bans or the EU dropping the need for Green Cards.

Did you have an accompanying driver and did they have a full valid licence for the required time ?

Who owns the car ? Even if you had a valid Irish learners permit then the owner could still face fines and jail time by allowing the car to be used by you. And have their car seized.

banie01

OP's best chance is to confirm to the court that in the Queen's English that "Provisional" is synonymous with "Professional" and the provincial oiks in An Garda are mistaken!

Totally outflank the law with linguistic wizardry!

BuildTheWall

On the banner ads for this thread I’m getting L stickers and solicitors lol

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250591#Comment_118250591

Essentially it means any previous EU rights for UK documents where thrown out by the UK.

were UK provisional licences ever recognised here?

D3V!L

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250702#Comment_118250702

Never

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250731#Comment_118250731

yeah I didn't think so. Nothing to do with Brexit at all.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250545#Comment_118250545

A UK provisional licence here is less useful than a chocolate teapot. Especially if you like sweet tea and dark chocolate. The the fat content of molten chocolate act as an insulator.

A Polish driver candidate card might be more useful but the colour would be a dead give away.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250859#Comment_118250859

and that has always been the case. nothing to do with brexit.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250795#Comment_118250795

Just pointing out that because of Brexit they would have needed to verify that any and all UK documents are recognised here, it's a catch all clause for anyone tempted to argue the toss about any of their assumptions.

The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.

loveall

I'd be sure an insurance company would have explained to the OP why he wasn't insurable. I just don't get why he didn't apply for an Irish learner permit and go legit, especially as he re regged the car. Unless of course there's more to the story. He knew exactly what he was at. Deserves to be scared and hopefully with good reason. He moved here and therefore made the choice to abide by the laws of this land. Hopefully not the land of eejits he was banking on.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250545#Comment_118250545

Yes but not in this jurisdiction. I should perhaps have been clearer and said "theres no such thing *in this jurisdiction* as a provisional license".

You either have a license after a test, or you have no license. I hope they throw the book at the OP. Driving uninsured is a crime that hits all of us with the levies to cover MIBI.

[Steve]

How someone could even think about setting foot in an uninsured car that they've gone to the trouble of re-registering, NCT'd, and to top it all off driving without a licence - is beyond me.

I'm on a learners permit myself for the last month or so and wouldn't even think of crossing into the North, let alone bringing my car to another country. As a learner driver you should be even more aware of this since you'd have recently had to learn it anyway, unless you've been on that provisional for a long time.

OP there's no argument to be had, the inability to obtain insurance does not give entitlement to drive. Maybe if you were living in a country where it insurance wasn't common then sure a judge might be a little sympathetic to that but the UK has the same requirements as Ireland in that regard. No sympathy, no excuse.