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RTB Adjudication and Appeals

  • 30-11-2021 2:39pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 11 tdawgg


    We've been tenants in our house since 2008. Original landlord lost the house and bank to possession, began paying rent to receiver in 2014, then receiver's moved on and a management property took over in 2017, we began paying rent to them.

    They issued an eviction notice as they wanted to sell, which was deemed invalid by threshold and we were told to inform the management company 1 month before the eviction date and heard nothing back from the management company.

    I've made a lease with the management company when they first started collecting rent and I had put in a clause stating that in the absence of any formal agreement that the lease should continue for a further 5 years.

    Also stated they cannot terminate the lease before it expires ( wanted to give my me and my family some security in this homeless crisis )

    Eviction date passed and I remained in the property.

    Then I get a letter from a new management company saying they're now the main point of contact and that they manage the property and I need to pay them rent, so I stopped paying the old management company rent and forwarded the rent to the new crowd.

    The new crowd then collected rent for about a year. I figured out the house was being sold online through a digital bidding site called www.bidx1.com but i was not informed about this nor did I receive an eviction notice stating they want to sell.

    House got sold in the end and new landlord came and basically wanted to kick us out because he wants to occupy it, refused to give a letting agreement and said i'll work off the previous one you had in place with the management company.

    Now he's issued a dispute to the RTB because we're overholding but I have explained to him prior my situation that I managed to find a new place but i'm just waiting for it to be built and just need few more weeks till its completed.

    I have an adjudication hearing now and wondering where do i stand with my overholding status? Landlord has agreed to work off my previous lease which allows me to stay in house till mid 2022?

    Do I stand a chance or how does it work? Really don't want to make my family homeless and we cannot find a short term let for 2 months till our house is built, any advice i'd greatly appreciate!


    Thanks in advance



«1

Answers

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭ MacDanger


    It doesn't sound like the LL has issued you with a valid notice of termination so I'd say you'll be fine



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 tdawgg


    I spoke to threshold about the notice of termination and they said it is valid, hence why I didn't question it/dispute it from the get go.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭ MacDanger


    Well if you're 100% certain that it's a valid notice then you should vacate the property. How much notice were you given?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 tdawgg


    Well I'm only going off what Threshold had advised me on, and he has given 224 days or something. In the meanwhile I was able to secure something, just waiting on it to be completed!



  • Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭ houseyhouse


    Threshold are pro tenant. If they’re saying it’s valid, they’re probably right. If RTB finds against you, it could still take months for them to forcefully evict you. I understand it’s hard to find somewhere at the moment but if it’s only a couple of months could you stay with family?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11 tdawgg


    I know they're pro tenant, I'm hoping I can delay things in the time being with the hearing, do you know how long it takes for the adjudicator decision to come back? Also we're all the one family renting here I should have mentioned, hopefully our new house will be ready early next year!



  • Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭ houseyhouse


    I don’t know but I can’t imagine it’s less than a few weeks, especially over Xmas. I understand you’re a family but do you have parents/in-laws you can move in with? I have had to do this for a couple of months myself in the past when moving so I understand it’s not ideal.

    Are you buying a house? Do you have anything from the builder saying when it’ll be ready? Maybe it would be useful to send this to your LL so they know you’re actually trying to move.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 tdawgg


    unfortunataly we’ve no other family here, I’ve tried to secure alternative accommodation but the lockdowns and the rental market certainly didn’t help!

    I’m waiting on the builder to come back with an official date, was due to be moved in December but they’re a little delayed which is happening across all developments so I wasn’t surprised!

    ive informed the LL about this but he was insisting we move out, was honestly hoping he’d co-operate with us as I understand his situation too that he wants his house and I want nothing more than giving it to him but can’t find somewhere to go in the meantime.



  • Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭ houseyhouse


    Well it sounds like you’re doing your best in a very difficult situation. For what it’s worth I wouldn’t move my kids out with nowhere to go either. I’m a landlord but I’m a parent first.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 tdawgg


    i was told the RTB will be on the LL side seeing we are in breach here… do you reckon they’ll take into consideration the fact we have somewhere sorted but just need a little more time or will they over throw that?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭ houseyhouse


    If you were given valid notice and you're overholding, then they'll have to find against you. But that doesn't mean they'll say you need to be out in the morning. There's a whole process they will go through, with notices to comply and so on and then a court case. All that can take some time. If your new house is to be ready in a couple of months, I'm certain they won't have got to the point of physically removing you/changing the locks before then. But I do think the adjudication decisions are posted online so if a future landlord searches your name, they'll see it. Not much of an issue if your name is John/Mary Murphy but could be if it's something more unusual.

    Have you been in touch with Threshold apart from having them examine your notice of termination? They may have resources that can help you, e.g. advice on finding a short-term rental etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 tdawgg


    Thanks so much for the response, I’m hoping that they’d be able to let me in till the house is ready to move so hence why I’m praying for the process to be slow! I’m also wondering about the letting agreement between us and the old Management company, seeing the LL agreed on it and it’s in written, I wonder does he have to honour the T&C’s and allow us to stay till it lapse which should definitely cover the period the house will be ready in!


    ive reached threshold about this hearing and they pretty much said it’s between you and the LL and to try sort something if that can happen. Doesn’t seem like the LL is willing to co-operate even thought I’ve told him our situation!



  • Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭ houseyhouse


    I can't comment on your letting agreement. I haven't seen it and I'm not an expert in that kind of thing. There's no harm in showing it to the RTB. You understood that you had a right to stay for a certain amount of time but whether it's legally binding or not would depend on a lot of factors. It seems unusual to me that the tenant would be adding conditions to the lease about the duration of the tenancy but, again, I really don't know that much about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 tdawgg


    im planning to show it to the RTB and hoping for the best! Thanks for your input,

    much appreciated



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,260 Mod ✭✭✭✭ The_Conductor


    The Residential Tenancies Board undertook to fast-track cases of over-holding, and advise that they have an average time to hearing of 5 weeks. After that- if findings are disputed etc- it can be dragged out, however, at a cost (there can be financial findings against whoever looses the case). It would be up to person who wins the case to decide whether to pursue any award via the RTB in the first instance, or the court system thereafter. All of this takes time (and is damn stressful for everyone concerned).

    With respect of a lease that you were given by the landlord- it cannot offer you terms that are any less than those offered to you in the Residential Tenancies Act- including, but not limited to, terms of notice to vacate the property. I've never ever heard of a residential tenant drawing up their own lease and getting a landlord to sign it- it wouldn't be in a landlord's interest to give you additional rights over and above those in the RTA- and if they did sign off on it, and you modified a lease that they gave you which had standard clauses- you could end up in a large scale dispute over it. Add into the equation that this was with a previous owner of the property- and its a recipe for murky observations and accusations- it could go to a hearing, and maybe just maybe it might prevail, but it is highly unusual- to the point of being virtually unheard of.

    If Threshold- who are a tenant's advocacy organisation, advise that your notice to vacate the property is valid- and they are renowned for their laissez fair interpretation of the law in a tenant's favour- I would suggest that playing games with the RTB is a futile exercise, its only going to get incredibly stressful for everyone- and I would be seriously exploring what alternate short term accommodation I might be in a position to procure (even staying in a hotel for a few weeks to get you over the line- if you're unable to come to an arrangement with the landlord). Most hotels will offer excellent rates for someone who is willing to stay for a few weeks.

    Its not ideal- but if as you say Threshold have said your notice is valid- you can be pretty sure it is valid- you need to have a Plan B other than playing mindgames with the RTB (which could work- but could blow up).

    The system is setup to protect tenants- and you were given valid notice, that is what is key here. You need to put serious effort into exploring viable alternate plans.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭ Claw Hammer


    I know someone who was a tenant with a lease. The property was sold at bidx1 and the landlord tried to terminate. The tenant got in a barrister and had the termination deemed ineffective because it was during the currency of the lease. The adjudicator tried to assist the landlord with advice after the hearing and the barrister wouldn't allow it. It cost money for the barrister but the tenant is still there has has saved more than the barristers fees.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,037 ✭✭✭✭ Varik


    The OP says that threshold said the notice was invalid. From the looks of it you've all confused yourselves with the Op picking up from MacDangers post wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭ Claw Hammer


    The o/p said nothing of the kind. The o/p says Threshold told him the notice was valid. Nothing to do with McDanger's post.

    No reason at all for the o/p to up and move.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 tdawgg


    thanks all for the help, appreciate it all, the house situation is really messy, basically the first management company when they took over in 2017 had issued a lease where we added T&C’s into it and they signed on that.

    then issued an eviction notice which was deemed invalid according to threshold and we fought that in a mediation

    then the management company that we had the lease with has been disengaged and a new management company took over and started collecting rent ( sometime in 2019 ) and they said they’re working off the previous agreement that we had with the old agency that got disengaged ( I.e they got handed our file case ) and they started collecting rent!

    then in 2020 they put the house up for sale without notifying us. Which in my seems bizarre as they never informed of this!

    I would have expected them to honour the lease and then issue a valid notice of termination when it’s up!

    None of that happend, and the house eventually got sold!

    new owner refused to make a new letting agreement and provided me with a letter to say he’s happy to work off the old letting agreement that was in place with the management company!

    its all a big mess!



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭ Claw Hammer



    It is very simple. Get in a good lawyer and fight your corner.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Are the new owners looking to move in themselves?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,037 ✭✭✭✭ Varik


    "They issued an eviction notice as they wanted to sell, which was deemed invalid by threshold and we were told to inform the management company 1 month before the eviction date and heard nothing back from the management company."

    You couldn't even be bothered to re read the OPs before jumping in to correct me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭ Claw Hammer


    That refers to an old notice. The o/p is concerned with a new notice. You couldn't even read the entire post of the o/p before jumping in to correct me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,037 ✭✭✭✭ Varik


    Only notice given that threshold gave any opinion on was the first.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I’ve just read the OP again. You’re calling the new owners landlords but I think that’s an incorrect description. They purchased a house with a view to living in it themselves (as per your OP). They could also be renting and need out of their rental too.

    Could you possibly take over their property (if they are renting) whilst waiting for your own purchase to complete?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭ Claw Hammer


    In the o/p's second post he says threshold told him the second notice was valid. That would mean that threshold gave an opinion on two notices.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,037 ✭✭✭✭ Varik


    Look at the recent post. Only one proper (even if invalid) notice got issued which was from the initial agent for the receiver, and the current owner just stormed in and said he wanted them to leave before jumping to the RTB.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ Raichu


    I’m fairly certain that you can’t write in clauses to a lease between yourself and a company/individual & have it apply to anyone else who becomes the property owner.


    basically the new owner is under absolutely no obligations to let you stay just because you (which is weird af to begin with) put that clause there.


    honestly means about as much as if you stuck a post-it note on your fridge.



  • Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭ houseyhouse


    New owner wouldn’t have been able to get an owner-occupier mortgage on a property that’s inhabited. They could maybe have got a buy-to-let mortgage (though not sure what would happen to that when they moved in themselves). Most likely they were cash buyers. Either way, not your typical FTB set up.

    I also think that selling through BidX1 is a clear indication that there are issues with the property so thats a risk they took to get a (presumably) good price. I’m not saying they’re not entitled to use their own property, just that it’s unlikely the new owner is some hard up young family who expected to move straight into this house as their new home.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Considering the first post states threshold says the notice was illegal and then a few posts later it states threshold say it’s legal, it’s difficult to tell what the new owners thought when they purchased the house.

    We know nothing about the new owner/s apart from the fact that they wanted to move in straight away and now have to go to the RTB to get access to their property. Who knows where they’re staying whilst they wait. But we do know that they are now landlords (for want of a better word) against their will.



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