Civil Service Resignation

lucat

I can't be the only civil servant thinking of quitting in favour of a private sector job. Who else is?

Has anyone else resigned from the civil service recently (or in recent years) and would you mind sharing your story?

BKWDR

And equally there are plenty of people quitting private sector jobs who are applying for public sector jobs.

Sometimes the grass isn't always greener. There are people and jobs that are mindless and frustrating in all walks of life. I've had friends move from public to private and regret it and try get back when their family situation changed etc

Make a list of why you are thinking of leaving and see if you can put anything in place to counter it or change it. But depends on how long are you in the civil service , your age and point in your life, these are the things that make it more daunting i suppose

Wouldnt blame a lot of new entrants for looking at things and wondering about their lot

All I'd say is you've to have a long term view and it's no harm to get proactive about your plans if where you are isn't working, but patience is often required and I know (and remember well!) that it can be hard before you start climbing the ladder

SHOVELLER

Resigned 4 years ago and best decision I ever made. In for 20 years as a CO and only one was worthwhile speaks volumes for the culture and the laughable promotional metrics.

People say its a job for life but that is the problem too in terms of motivation.

If you are unhappy get out as there's only one life and no point wasting it in an organisation that does not value its employees.

Augme

What traditionally made the civil service an attractive employer has now disappeared. There's no flexi tine and the work life balance has disappeared working remotely.

If you've been on the PUP for the last few 18 months you've been earning not far off the same amount of month as a new clerical officer in the civil service.

What the future holds for the civil service seems so uncertain. How will hybrid working go, will flexi only be available if in the office etc etc. What does the wage increase situation look like given the current government finances.

It's a bleak future ahead for the civil service imo. I wouldn't blame anyone for looking to go out at this juncture.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220672#Comment_118220672

Rubbish. Civil and public servants are forever poor mouthing and moaning about their lot. That feeds into a lot of the negativity felt by all staff as well.

Clerical officers are unskilled and not trained in a profession/trade. Of course they start off low, just like they would in something like retail. They have endless opertunitlies to upskill and progress, not so much available in low paid private sector companies, e.g. study leave. With yearly pay increases plus a promotion or two, a civil servant would have a solid income after a while.

Working a strict 9-5 gives plenty of work-like balance with generous annual leave, especially as it looks WFH could be a permanent option removes commuting. Exactly how much time off do you people want?

For those looking for opertunites outside Dublin and major cities, the civil/public service is one of the few viable options. People know this, which is why there is such competition to get in.

the explorer

It can be a difficult decision to make alright. You might look back in 15 years and think 'what if?', but you could also end up been made redundant in the private sector in your 50s with little chance of getting back to where you were ( I have seen this happen a number of times, particularly to men). I suppose if you enjoy the work to an extent and have other interests outside of work its not the worst, not forgetting the possibility to take 40+ days off with flexi (which I know is suspended with WFH).

embraer170

WFH seems to be the equivalent of permanent flexi leave for some people I know both in the public and private sector.

enricoh

The grass probably is greener at the minute in the private sector as companies have to outbid each other.

However Ireland is possibly overdue a recession at this stage, it looks like Ireland will be less attractive to MNCs in the future. It all depends whether u've big mortgage, dependants etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118242366#Comment_118242366

People forget that flexi isn't free time off. Its time in lieu of extra work done.

But I agree with the rest of the post 😂

the explorer

Another thought, with inflation hitting 5-6% this year, will public sector worker's incomes devalue in real terms over the next year or 2 with the 1%/€500 annual increases. The government were lucky that they signed the 2 year pay agreement in 2020 rather than this year when inflation started to take off. I certainly couldn't see the government offering higher for 2022 than the 1% next October, I doubt there would be any serious threat of industrial action either. In a sense there is a trade off to having a permanent job, but over a few years of even 3-4% inflation it will start to add up.

lucat

Reigniting this discussion. Thank you for your responses.

The reason I want to leave is because I have expertise in a specific sector that I built up before joining the civil service (think accounting or HR or something else generalist civil servants can be assigned to but requires expertise, interest & training for them to be effective in the job). I was hoping to put this to use within the civil service system but I haven't been able to.

Instead I have been assigned to roles that I simply have no interest in, learning about policies and policy areas I'm not interested in and frankly, don't really care about (at least, not as much as I should to do the policy and the people it serves justice). I have tried to be assigned to areas/roles that would put my expertise to use but HR have shot me down.

When I joined the civil service I had no intention of sacrificing my career, but that is what I have done. I understand HR have to look after the Department but I don't see how failing to take individual wishes, interests and expertise into account, as a matter of recruitment policy, does this. And it goes both ways: if HR has the needs of the Department to consider, I have to consider the best interests of my own career just as much.

There is also the fact that I'd be earning more, I'd have the ability to get promoted on merit rather than a time-consuming exam process as clear and transparent as mud, I could negotiate my pay, and my career trajectory would be based on experience rather than my place in a hierarchy. Granted I could be laid off or fired, but a system where employees can't be fired is a system where they can't be managed or disciplined either, and that is a level of passivity that just doesn't suit my personality.

I'm currently applying for jobs in my 'old' sector but I would like to try one last time to get into the area I have expertise in, in my Dept. I have to think carefully about how to approach this conversation with my manager, the manager of that unit & HR. And if I'm shot down again...at least I tried!

lucat

lucat

What motivated you to take the plunge & resign after 20 years, if you don't mind me asking? Had you been thinking about it for long?

lucat

Yes but you can look further afield due to the unprecedented amount of remote or hybrid opportunities.

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118212027#Comment_118212027

You must have been in either Social Welfare or Revenue. Those are the only places I can think of where you could have been a CO for 20 years and not get promoted. And even then I'd love to know how you spent 20 years as a CO if you have any ambition at all.

lucat

Mods please be aware that I cannot seem to reply to specific posts nor can I delete my posts. When I flag them (which I shouldn't have to do) nothing happens.

Flinty997

I know a few who've gone from Public Sector not Civil for the same reasons.

lucat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118923567#Comment_118923567

That's normal. If you're in one of the lower grades you're unlikely to be promoted internally. This is due to assumptions and unconscious bias in my opinion. There was a WRC case last year on ageism and it came to light that the interview panel had received no training on unconscious bias. This lack of training is the norm.

lucat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118923608#Comment_118923608

Good to hear. Sometimes all the positive impressions and opinions of it being a good place to work can cloud the reality- it is a good place to work but not necessarily a good place to build a career. There's a difference.

BingCrosbee

I work part time with the CSO. I retired from a beautiful job 3 years ago. The Civil Service is disgusting and horrible. Thank God I never worked there as a young person. My bosses are yes men and boring. I will be gone by the end of April.

lucat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118923861#Comment_118923861

What field did you work in before, if you don't mind me asking? What made you leave?

lucat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211300#Comment_118211300

I just don't have any desire to try to climb the ladder any more. The promotion process is demoralising enough but why do it for a job I might not even be interested in, and where I won't be able to use my expertise meaning it will eventually become outdated? That's a sacrifice I'm not willing to make.

Butterfly182

I have to say I have got a lot out of my career in the Civil Service so far.

I started as a TCO in 2016 at 22 years old.

I went for the EO role in 2017 at 23 years old and was successful.

I was offered and accepted a three month acting HEO position in 2019 at 25 years old.

I was offered and accepted the same acting HEO position in 2020 at 26 years old.

I was successful in the AO 2021 competition and am waiting to be called for clearance at 28 years old.

I've worked really hard doing extra courses outside of hours (I had my BA complete before I started in the Civil Service). I've put my all in during working hours and feel it has been rewarded.

I also availed of Mobility to get experience in different departments which is a great advantage. There are also secondment opportunities for specific jobs which can be advantageous if you want a job in a specific area.

I wouldn't really call CO work unskilled though TBH. Most new entrants have a BA. As a TCO I was calculating and issuing paying out thousands of euro over time to DSP payment recipients. It can be a role with a lot of responsibility depending on the dept especially in DSP.

LegallyAbroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118923650#Comment_118923650

That makes no sense. Who is getting promoted to internal EO, if not COs?

Ive seen (very good) COs go to AP in under 2 years, so if you're good the path is there for you.

lucat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925381#Comment_118925381

When I say lower grades I mean EO and CO.

I know a CO who got HEO within two years....but not by internal promotion. Plus you always hear the stories of "someone knowing someone" which makes them the exception that proves the rule. The rule being that is not the norm. But this subject is a bit off topic.

SHOVELLER

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118923567#Comment_118923567

Yes SW and DFA and I was very ambitious but as said here the whole process is demoralising. In fact I gave up a few years from the end as it was a waste of my time.

An example would be trying to get to be an S.O. Filled out endless forms to get to an interview where there is no feedback. Seriously a Staff Officer? I, and other COs there at the time could have done any job at any grade but the culture is not smart.

Remarkably they had the mechanism to promote people and it was called advancement which basically meant if one stayed long enough in a grade they would get promoted.

A smart organisation helps their human capital to be better to get the best out of said organisation. It is offensive that experienced civil servants are exempt from promotion just because they dont have a degree.

But I breath better air these days!

SHOVELLER

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118923089#Comment_118923089

And this is another point that matters in all of this. The HR units in Departments are staffed in the main by people who are not qualified to be there. Human Resources is the most important part of any organisation and these units have staff that are just bounced between sections and HR suffers as a result. There is no communication from them and certainly no meaningful help.

When I moved into the real world I was contacted by HR and asked regularly how they could help me do my job better. I nearly fell off my chair! This is exactly what a competent HR unit does.

Their current mechanism of promotion is not fit for purpose. Basing an interview on certain metrics without taking into account one's life experience and as you correctly mention one's expertise is ridiculous and again they are excluding possible talent.

What should be done is finding that talent is right under their noses. Look at the files of COs who have that experience and expertise and help them. Someone who has an impeccable attendance and sick record and has had varied experience across a lot of sections in different departments should be earmarked instead of bypassing them based on outdated modes.

But there is as more chance of peace in the Middle East than reform and common sense in the civil service.

caviardreams

Selecting staff based on impeccable sick leave and attendance isn't a good approach - and discriminates against those with disabilities or health issues.

It should be based on a blend of performance and potential.

HR's role is not really to help staff - it's to ensure employment law and policies are complied with (on both sides) and to protect the government from legal action

I think its quite judgemental to suggest that because someone may be a CO or EO for 20 years that its because there must be something lacking in them.

Opportunities for advancement can be very slow and very limited in smaller departments - not everywhere is DSP or Revenue. I know people who decentralised in the early 2000's who are still in the same grade because promotion would mean leaving the area (of the country) they work in.

Many people have family or caring responsibilites where they have to weigh up the benefits of moving department, or staying in a current role which may suit those responsibilities. A promotion may mean giving up a worksharing pattern that suits them. Stress level -versus- a tiny pay increase for going up to the next grade. So they compromise. Stay in a role longer than they probably should.

The sick leave policy is very strict, over 56 days in a rolling four years, and you are not "suitable" for promotion, unless you can get some of the sick leave discounted. One serious illness that has you out for 2 or 3 weeks, and it clocks up, fast. I remember getting flu in 2000 over christmas. I was absent from work for 7 or 8 office days, but it was counted as 26 days on my sick leave report as weekends and bank holidays were included as "sick" days. Viral illness not discountable, like a broken leg or once off injury. And it takes 4 years for an absence to drop off a sick leave report.

Then don't forget, there was a recruitment ban and freeze on promotions for many years. Many of those 20 year COs and EOs would have been impacted by that.

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118927143#Comment_118927143

What about open competitions? I spent years as a Clerical Assistant in SW, got the CO on automatic promotion, then got the EO on an outside competition and escaped SW. Spent 3.5 years as an EO and got the HEO. In my current Department there's competitions for all grades every two years. I've seen guys go from HEO to PO in the space of five years.

Open competition might still mean a change of department and location.

Family circumstances might not make this easy or preferable. Easier for a single person, definitely.

Things are very, very different now than they were even 10 years ago when promotions were rarer and much more difficult to get and open competitions few and far between.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058219260/civil-service-resignation

Public service reminds me of being at school. All anal old fashioned rules and hierarchy. No thanks

Hippo

Resigned from EO after 3 years. It's very disheartening when half the staff do little or nothing and it makes no difference to them in terms of promotion. Our dept/section had plenty of people who were clearly great at the competency-based interviews while under-performing in their roles. The interview was a skill I could never crack properly (and that was my fault) so despite my delivery of results and general performance I was finding it impossible to progress. I will say, while lots of staff were shall we say 'offhand' in their approach to work, there were many who were very dedicated and excellent at their job.

I've moved back to the private sector; I work longer hours but the pay is better and I receive proper recognition for my work. I'd never go back.

BrianD3

If someone has the option of leaving for the private sector they are probably in a good position. However, many long serving civil and especially public servants are stuck in a miserable rut. Work not valued, little or no promotional opportunities, private sector employers regard them as "ruined" and a worse prospect than an 18 year old with no experience. This is a valid view in some cases - there are some highly paid people who would not last 5 minutes in any private sector job, be it a senior executive or a burger flipper. No leadership, management or "doing" skills. OTOH, there are plenty of junior star performers doing great work and dealing with utter nonsense day in day out. But the longer they stay, the more chance that they will become that which they hate.

The prospect of a good pension (could be 10, 15, 20 years into the future) is about the only thing that keeps many going.

The pension system doesn't help - if you resign for a private sector job and don't return within 26 weeks you are on the single pension scheme if you do return. This contributes to the number of institutionalised lifers in the public service.

road_high

Seems to be more common from my experience. Especially I’ve seen a few with mid level with technical experience go to private sector. Re numeration and package simply can’t compete.

LegallyAbroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118934523#Comment_118934523

This is objectively untrue.

I joined from the private sector about 6 years ago.

Since then there has been at least 2 competitions for each of EO, AO, AP, PO, and A/SEC with hundreds of people promoted.

Outside of that there have also been promotions available in specialist grades.

How can you therefore say in that context that there are little or no promotion opportunities?

jjnaas

I was a CO ''down the country'' for several years in my 20s. Caveat here that those years did overlap with some of the moratorium. I was the youngest in the office, one of only a handful of males (the others were all much older and farmers too) and the atmosphere was dreadful overall. We were all lined up and admonished for washing teaspoons after clocking back in after break by the HEO. Most of these ladies were 40+ and they were looking at the floor taking this from a Hitlerette high on power. I was eventually moved to a Revenue office doing collections which turned out to be worse. One of the EOs would stop chewing her gum when someone got a call so she could listen and then she would whisper to her pets about what the CO/TCO had done wrong and then email their EO behind their back. Another old timer kept track of people's days off and would shout across the room as someone left for a half-day ''you've only 5 days left now hahaha'' When the eavesdropper leaped out of her chair one day and shoved her face so close to mine that she got a red mark from my beard (all hoping to catch me out and gossip about me) I said that was it.

I left, worked in a shop, and applied for a springboard course. I'm now in the private sector and I absolutely love it. My supervisors have been much more handsoff and have treated me like an adult. it's much more performance-based. If you are not performing you're in trouble. I enjoy that though. I like being busy, I like pushing myself and the rewards for performing well are excellent so that's somewhat of motivation too. I've been promoted on performance and my supervisors have all pushed me to improve and helped me make connections to get ahead. And I WFH so there's no nonsense office drama which suits me down to the ground.

I know my experience isn't representative of the CS as a whole and I appreciate that there are more opportunities these days but I can only speak to my own experience and it wasn't for me. Looking back, I was so jaded and miserable at work that I didn't enjoy those years of my youth as I should have. I had a sick relative so emigrating wasn't an option but I don't look back. No point.

The Buster

After 15 or 16 years I left privatr sector and joined civil service stayed 3 years and back in private again.

There are advatages to both

• Paid more in private. Also annual bonus and used to have share options
• Started near bottom of pay scale and it is a long way to the top. Annual increment is smaller than I would have received private (I worked in multi national where there were increments - not everyone gets one annually in private sector)
• 5 or 6 days more annual leave in civil service
• Flexi time / condensed working week / job share / option to work part time all available in civil service - not sure if i was there long enough to avail but I wouldnt have ever got that from other employers
• Option to apply for leave of abscences. Again wouldnt have got that
• Civil service was much more relaxed. Working hours respected. I didnt have to work to as many deadlines

Basically private get paid more but job flexibility / time off was much better in civil service.

SHOVELLER

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118927930#Comment_118927930

HR role is to help staff. I have seen this first hand in the private sector. Rising tides etc. It goes back to my point that HR units in the CS are not qualified to be there.

Agree with rest of your post.

SHOVELLER

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931845#Comment_118931845

Open competitions required a degree which not all COs have. Again that is discriminatory as their circumstances might dictate they were not able to pursue a degree. Plus I'm sure we have all met people with degrees and even MBAs who are dumb as a rock.

exitstageleft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118951857#Comment_118951857

I don't think you can call a requirement to have a degree discriminatory. Otherwise, you're basically saying that requiring qualifications is discriminatory.

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118951857#Comment_118951857

You don't need a degree for Executive Officer competitions. Basic Leaving Cert will do. Once you get the EO the HEO is easy enough to get to if you're any way competent and have a bit of ambition.

SECTION 1 (publicjobs.ie)

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118951857#Comment_118951857

Almost all public sector organisations will support staff to get qualifications, degrees or other professional qualifications.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118951835#Comment_118951835

HR's primary role is to protect the employer. To believe anything else is incredibly naïve.

lucat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952062#Comment_118952062

But it is pointless because if a degree is an entryway to a promotion, but on promotion you won't be placed in a sector or doing work that uses the degree...then it was a waste of your time and CS/taxpayers money. You're doing a degree just for box ticking.

And this is fundamental to why I want to resign, and why I haven't pursued any promotion opportunities in a long time. I want to be able control the area I specialise in and I want to be able to use the degree and experience I have already gained.

lucat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118951857#Comment_118951857

What tempted you to go back to Private?

lucat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118934523#Comment_118934523

The SS pension is useless, especially if you start below HEO, so the pension won't be keeping anyone there in a few years! But tbh I don't like the idea of living for the day I retire anyway, and I don't think it should be considered normal, but it is at the moment.

thiagos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930673#Comment_118930673

Ah what planet are ya on that 56 days over 4 years is very strict. Im a civil servant so not civil servant bashing haha.

fits

I lost my good pension when I left public service in 2012. On spss now and in one corner of public sector where job security is terrible. But the work is interesting and I think I’d hate to be staying in a role for the sake of a pension. Plenty of work out there at moment so f it.

lucat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925303#Comment_118925303

Sounds like you have had a positive experience but I notice that you did not have a pre-existing career going into the CS (correct me if I'm wrong). This means when you became a civil servant you did not have to sacrifice any expertise you might have built up (I assume) and you would naturally have wanted and needed to get insight into a variety of sectors. I think this puts you in a slightly different position from myself and anyone else with a couple of years under their belt, assuming their objective is to continue to build a career in a particular field.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952563#Comment_118952563

Educational supports can be manipulated. At least in public sector.

Some people only allowed inflexible course schedules that makes it difficult for them to take them up. Others allowed every flexibility to do courses of their choice. Limited places on courses or training budgets filled by the same few people all the time.

Then they filter new roles on these new qualifications that only a select few have gotten access to.

Classic one I saw was putting competencies that no one at that grade would have a hope to have, on the requirements. They had to roll back on that one, was funny to see.

Sometimes you can actually work out the person that will get a new role because the specification reads like a list of an identifiable persons recent training courses and projects.

Dunno if it's the same in CS never worked there. It also happens in the private sector but it's not as common.