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Rationale for firearm - investment?

  • 20-11-2021 6:31pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 21


    Dear All,

    I was chatting with my local RFD and was offered to purchase a quite nice 12G side-by-side. The shotgun is about 50 years old and needs some TLC, but having looked online, a refurbished model is going for 4K and would represent quite the return on investment - possibly more if I was to keep the shotgun longer term.

    TO my question, do you think I would manage to get through the FCA1 form with the rationale/reason for ownership being investment?


    By way of background, I already have 2 rifles (one hunting, one target) and a sporter 12G for clays.



Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Yes.


    This very scenario is covered under the Garda Commissioner's guidelines. Specifically:

    Some people will occasionally wish to purchase an old or antique firearm, or one which is valuable because of its historical significance, for no reason other than as an investment. This may sometimes be regarded as 'good reason' having regard to all the circumstances, and if capable of being fired, these firearms will require a firearms certificate.


    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Emphatically yes, as Cass stated above.

    I've also had a similar inquiry sent from my FO to the FPU and collecting, under the "other" reason on the fca1 form is an acceptable reason for getting a firearms certificate.

    So if you deem this to be collectable, and at 4k refurbished and a historical firearm(50 years old) also I think collection & investment would be a good dual purpose reason for licensing.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 21 aWant4aNew


    Thanks both. I’ll note the above guidance in my application.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    @Cass @otmmyboy2

    If you buy a gun because it is collectable, under what conditions can you use it? Can it be used for hunting or on a range?.or does that have to be specified on the application form as well?

    Also, does it have to have a minimum value/age to be deemed collectable?

    Sorry for all the questions, just curious as I like older guns and I am interested in knowing more about this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,979 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    You'll probably get different opinions on that.

    I'm of the view that there are no hunting licenses in Ireland. There are no collectors licenses. The reason given only exists as a means to give the relevant person a reason to grant the license. Once granted, there are no legal restrictions on using it that I am aware.

    If you apply for a firearms license for an antique rifle because it's collectable. There is no obstacle to using it on the range than if you applied for the same rifle with target shooting as the reason.

    As I said, others have different views. Some see the reasons on the form and becoming a restriction on the license. But I'm yet to see that backed up in law.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    I am not aware of anything in law which says as much, but I have heard from several sources including my firearms officer that it works as follows:

    Hunting can do hunting & target shooting,

    Target shooting means only target shooting.

    How accurate that is legally I don't know, but there it is. At this point I usually tick all 3 boxes(hunting, target shooting, other) and add a cover letter explaining the "other" ie clay pigeons, collecting, pest control, investment, research, etc.


    No minium age or value to collect a firearm, however if asked you might have to provide a rationale for the firearm being applied for, particularly if it, at face value, is not particularly valuable, old, historically significant, etc.


    IE you have a firearm which was made in 2010, mass produced,potentially not particularly valuable, but has an unusual locking mechanism.

    That might be collectable simply based on the mechanism.

    Or say you decide you want to collect US service weapons?

    That covers everything from muskets to mk. 18 clones, which some may not be "collectable" by themselves, would be if they formed a part of a collection.


    FESAC(Federation of European Small Arms Collectors) takes the view that so long as a collection has some definition, like "boxlock shotguns of the 1980s" then that would be a valid collection.

    There is no body in Ireland (AFAIK) dedicated to collecting firearms, but there are in the EU and UK, so subscribing to an organisation there might also benefit your application, but is not mandatory.

    Most firearm collectors, even prolific ones, are unaffiliated.

    Hope that slightly longer winded answer helped some ;)

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Interesting stuff. Thanks for the information guys.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    When you apply for the license you put down all the reasons for wanting the firearm. In section 4.2 of the FCA1 you have three options:

    1. Hunting
    2. Target shooting
    3. Other ( Specify, e.g. Clay Pigeon, Vermin Control, etc ) 
    • Hunting is exactly what it says, hunting. You then provide proof of membership to a gun club or your own land permissions plus any licenses you hold (Deer, etc).
    • Target shooting is again exactly what it says. You provide proof of membership to a target range.
    • Other covers everything else such as hunting quarry that is not protected by seasons (foxes, rabbits, essentially what we call vermin). It also covers you for clay pigeon shooting because legally clay pigeon shooting is not classed as target shooting.

    You simply tick the number of boxes that you either want or may intend to want the firearm for, and then you add some detail on a separate sheet of paper to say you also wish to license the firearm as a collectable that has financial and historical value and you wish to own it as an investment.

    I'm not going into another back and forth on whether you can use a gun for other purposes once you get it for one purpose as I done this on 2 months. Long story short regardless of what people think the law says you apply for all the reasons you want the gun for and the Super/issuing person must be satisfied that you have good reason(s) and will continue to have good reason(s) for the duration of the license. You can read the thread I linked to yourself.

    As for hunting licenses, this is covered under your firearms license. There was a big "hub-bub" about this issue when the new licenses were first issued because unlike the old white licenses the new ones did not have the hunting "authorsation written on them. It was later declared by the Minister's office and AGS that the firearms license, while not saying it on the actual license, would stand as your hunting license.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    My curiosity was centered around whether you could use a firearm, that you have as an investment/collectable, for other purposes besides that. So, based on the above if you get a firearm solely as a collectable you cannot use it unless the other sections are filled out on the form with clubs/permissions etc.


    Thanks for the response.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    If you already own firearms then treat the application as a normal application and apply for the reasons you normally would. You don't need to use it for such but better to CYA.

    The collectible aspect would give additonal reasons for having a second or third shotgun if the primary reason for having it is value/investment, etc. but its always best to give addtional reasons if you have them.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,945 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    The only restriction I have ever heard of on a collectable firearm was one Mauser C96 Broomhandle pistol,owned by a fiery little Kerryman and was refused a license by a very anti-gun chief superintendent[now thankfully retired] in a court case back in the Oughties. As he claimed it was an antique and of historical significance, the judge mandated that it could be only used 2/3 times a year to keep it in working order🙄.

    Nothing to say you can't take your 50k matched set of Purdeys out for a day shoot.[Be it on your head if you get them scratched or wet mind].As there is no category here for collections in Irish gun laws,your collection or investment can be magpie ish unlike in the EU or UK where there are collectors, but they have to define what they are collecting and stick with that only. And in the UK/Germany I believe you would want to be at tweed jacket, pipe puffing academic level and be able to even baffle the Gun Jesus on some obscure topic on say, French rifles in the Franco Prussian war if that was your special field of collecting. To be able to justify being licensed as a collector of specific types of firearms.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,945 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    FESAC(Federation of European Small Arms Collectors) takes the view that so long as a collection has some definition, like "boxlock shotguns of the 1980s" then that would be a valid collection.

    On an aside, FESAC is affiliated with Firearms United Network and I have dealt with Mr Petroni the chairman, of this organisation a couple of times. The man is a walking encyclopedia of firearms knowledge and the history of Malta's battles and weaponry. So if anyone wants assistance on historical/investment/starting an Irish collectors organization, etc...PM me or see us over on the FB FUNI page.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,979 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    No that's not what it says.

    As sated above and in the other thread, "he law says you apply for all the reasons you want the gun for and the Super/issuing person must be satisfied that you have good reason(s) and will continue to have good reason(s) for the duration of the license". That is correct so far. The law says their must be a good reason to grant. Collecting is a good reason. The license can be issued for that reason.

    There is nothing in the above or the law that say your usage of the forearms is restricted to that good reason only. If that were the case, it would have to be stated in the law, on the license, or during the application/grant process.

    In the other thread it boils down to Cass's interpretation being "you must continue to comply with the reason given, and that reason only". Where as I believe the law actually says "you must continue to comply with the reason given". The massive difference being that using a collectible rifle on a range does not mean the original reason has stopped.

    Agreed.

    If you want to shoot a collectable, then legally you can (even if it's not the wisest way to preserve the collection).

    The exception would be you example, where there was a legal mandate imposed. Obviously there is a restriction there.



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