Austria hits panic button.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190901#Comment_118190901

A well made point.

And community rights become more important in an extreme situation - like a war, or indeed a pandemic. This is the closest thing to wartime (I hope) that we will ever live through. Governments need to take measures that would previously have been thought unthinkable in order to protect their people at large.

Not getting vaccinated is the equivalent of leaving the blinds up and the lights on, in London during the Blitz. The Austrians have been the first to tackle that selfish behaviour - they won't be the last.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190852#Comment_118190852

the actions of some authoritarian regimes but not the one you mentioned.

SupplyandDemandZone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190864#Comment_118190864

What about drink drivers who had an accident and require health care , what about obese people, what about someone who caught Aids from unprotected sex, diabetics, what about car drivers who have pumped toxins into the atmosphere killing millions should they be charged for health care if they need it?

Healthcare is for all, the minute you decide who is deserving of it is the minute it turns from healthcare to choicecare.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190901#Comment_118190901

Jim you're not even specifying which rights, or do you just mean any and all rights?

No I don't think the leaders of Austria and Germany should have a blank cheque to violate all rights because x or y % of unvaccinated people might take up x or y % of hospital capacity.

I don't think Alexander Schallenberg is infallible or should be given absolute power.

I think Austrians should seriously consider fleeing and seeking asylum if they're facing legal persecution.

Also the whole point of having rights is that you have some protection against these things. You're basically saying people shouldn't have rights.

JimmyVik

I know two staunch anti-vaxxers here who both got vaccinated so they could go to the pub. And they held out so long before that pub problem :)

Del Griffith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190380#Comment_118190380

Sure why not just literally imprison them? To get out, all the need to do is take a medical intervention they feel they dont want and dont need.

Or maybe we could put them in a torture chamber of some kind and start sawing their feet off. Its grand - just do what we want and you can go free. Totally their choice at the end of the day...

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190950#Comment_118190950

In this pandemic, if someone is willfully unvaccinated they are putting not just themselves, but others at increased risk. You, your family, your older relatives, etc. That's the key point, it's not about themselves, it's that they are affecting other people. Unvaccinated Covid patients are also taking up proportionally far more hospital beds and ICU beds and medical resources than vaccinated Covid patients.

They aren't to "blame" for the pandemic, they are not to "blame" for rapidly increasing cases, but their selfishness is of no benefit to the majority of the public and the health resources that we all have to share.

Larbre34

I am vaccinated. All my loved ones are vaccinated. I would try and persuade any suitable individual to get vaccinated. I think its selfish and stupid not to get vaccinated if you are able, with all the evidence now to hand.

However, Austria should not try to set aside basic human rights and introduce mandatory vaccination. It will not survive a challenge in the European Courts. In fact, I'll be surprised if it survives a challenge even in the Austrian Courts.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191138#Comment_118191138

That is orthogonal to the point I have made.

It doesn't follow that someone should have no legal rights because a personal choice they've made is adjudged to have "no benefit" to their country's centrally managed hospital system.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191206#Comment_118191206

If someone is unvaccinated in Austria they do have legal rights. They currently face temporary penalties for their willful decision to put others at risk and the hospital system at disproportionate risk during a pandemic. And in Feb they'll face further penalties if they refuse to be vaccinated.

growleaves

Compulsory vaccination is not a wise response to public scepticism of vaccination.

These very crude methods will yield strange fruit.

JC01

I think it’s a terrifying precedent.

The logic of the unvaccinated putting others at risk doesn’t really hold much water either. I understand Covid is a massive strain on the health system but so is people being overweight, unfit, people who smoke, drink, have underlying health issues, disabilities, are old, have autoimmune deficiencies, Jesus even being below average intelligence, the list is endless.

Would those in favour of these measures also like the see all of the above cohorts be outlawed? In a world where the government can legitimately mandate you be vaccinated against Covid shouldn’t they also target all other medical issues at the root cause?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191318#Comment_118191318

Ironically compulsory vaccination is becoming a thing because of anti-vaxxers.

People are queuing up to get vaccinated now in Austria, if that's the "strange fruit", then good.

Dyr

The EU how have been chasing Poland and Hungary over the "rule of law" for buying into ultra liberalism will have absolutely **** all to say about the Austrians forcing people to take lucky bag vaccines

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191390#Comment_118191390

If you have heart disease, for example, and you are overweight refuse to lose weight, drink and smoke but refuse to stop, then the HSE will discontinue your treatment.

Where unvaccinated put people at risk isn't necessarily down to Covid, it's because if I suddenly have a massive heart attack on my way home this evening and need to go to ICU, it's highly unlikely there will be a place for me there because so many of the ICU beds are being taken up with treating Covid cases.

Or if I were someone who was due to undergo cancer treatment, it is highly likely my scan appointments will be cancelled for the foreseeable because of the high incidence of Covid within hospitals. As a result the cancer could unknowingly take hold and, by the time they eventually get around to detecting it, I could be beyond treatment.

TonyMaloney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191390#Comment_118191390

All or most of the dangerous things you mentioned are heavily taxed. The idea being that if people are going to engage in an activity that will be a burden to the health care system eventually, then you should pay for it via direct taxation.

Perhaps it would be a fair system also for those that refuse to get jabbed. Fair enough, don't get the vaccine, but you're going to have massive PRSI contributions to make. I dunno how much, but say the equivalent contribution of someone who smokes 20 a day.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191536#Comment_118191536

Unvaccinated are already indirectly financially hit through having to pay for PCR and antigen tests when travelling.

Then they are disadvantaged by exclusion from various places.

However piling up legal disadvantages past a certain point only discourages vaccination, as it serves as confirmation that people are up against a hostile system.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190833#Comment_118190833

Not stagger.

Prioritise.

TonyMaloney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191585#Comment_118191585

But that price for a PCR or antigen test is to pay for the tests themselves. I'm talking about funding the service that they are an enormous burden to. Like smokers and drinkers do.

Seems fair to me. I'm worried I've wasted a good idea on this kip.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190399#Comment_118190399

Would this have happened if Kurz was still in charge?

Burty330

Austria has defied the Nuremberg precedent. Unfortunately we are next in line.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191603#Comment_118191603

The effect of which would be like I said.

Nurses will quit if forced to deliberately neglect patients, especially if the patient dies because of it.

Your scheme is totally unconscionable.

mikekerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190535#Comment_118190535

That's working out well in gibralter.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191618#Comment_118191618

I'm sorry that your genius has gone unrecognised.

JC01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191525#Comment_118191525

Good point re treatment, perhaps there’s a strong argument that we should end treatment for any unvaccinated Covid patients?

I understand that it’s the care requirement that makes Covid so dangerous for our health service but my post was pointing out that by extending that logic all of the other risk factors are also impacting out hospital and ICU capacity so shouldn’t we also look to eliminate those factors while we are at it with Covid?

Seth Brundle

According to a brother-in-law (medical consultant), the hospital mortuaries in NI are pretty much at capacity, largely because of patients who have not been able to get treatment over the last eighteen months because of the ongoing covid restrictions.

I take it for granted that we can't be that much different here. There are two reasons this virus has managed to increase its spread and that is people interacting with others and also by people not becoming immunised in order to lessen the impact of the virus on themselves and therefore on others.

JC01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191536#Comment_118191536

Heavily taxed, yes but not outlawed as being unvaccinated is going to be in Austria, if outlawing one is fair game then why not the others?

And the current system is certainly set up to make being vaccinated the smarter financial choice with the likes of 150e for a 72hr Covid pass via a PCR test.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191400#Comment_118191400

"If you just wanted to take the vaccine, we wouldn't be forcing you to take the vaccine"

That's not ironic.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191652#Comment_118191652

There's no argument for deliberately refusing to treat patients.

Our hospitals are named after Christian saints and based on mercy and charity, they aren't toys for dictators and people who wish they were dictators to play with.

If I found you dying in a ditch would it be okay if I left you there because you'd said or done something I didn't approve of?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191703#Comment_118191703

At some point it will be a choice of practicalities. The ICU will be overloaded and they will have to make choices.