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"The Great Resignation"

  • 19-11-2021 10:23am
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭ funkyzeit100

    This is a fairly new phenomena where people are simply quitting their jobs because they don't see the value in having a job anymore.

    It sounds mad, yet there it is.

    Talking with friends in the states it seems to be a very hot topic over there. Some say it's due to living costs just being too much and others say it's that companies should pay much more. Two sides of a coin.

    As one said, if you're working in the likes of McDonald's and there's no chance at getting your own home, and if you're not going to end up homeless and can survive on government subsidies, then there really isn't any point working beyond affording a few transient luxuries.

    I say it's spreading far beyond the likes of McDonald's, and now would include most junior positions in just about any sector, and probably a lot of senior positions in some sectors too.

    When you look at the rent scandals here (and there), is it any wonder people are just throwing up their hands in defeat?

    There's massive unemployment in Ireland in some areas and demographics, yet all you see are "staff wanted" signs everywhere. Something doesn't add up.

    Theres something extra stinky about this situation and it better be tackled head on immediately because disaster lays ahead.

    Imagine being an 18 year old living here and looking at your prospects, even the cost of rent to go to college is eyewatering.

    Affordability of life may be the single biggest threat to stability the world has seen in a very long time, because while increasing numbers of people may bow out of the economy, it doesn't mean they're happy about it. And plenty of pissed off people with plenty of time on their hands isn't a good combination.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ klaz

    There's massive unemployment in Ireland in some areas and demographics, yet all you see are "staff wanted" signs everywhere. Something doesn't add up.

    I've been looking for work (for the last 6-6 months). I returned to Ireland just before covid, but continued working online during the year after until my contract was finished. Then, I started looking for work in Ireland, since I'd like to stay around my elderly parents during the covid period. There are plenty of ads online for jobs, which I'm more than qualified for (both education and experience), but.. nothing. Not even the pretense of interviews. I've seen the same job ads come up repeatedly every few months, as if they've found people, and then, lost them again pretty quickly.

    Yeah, I'd agree that something doesn't add up. I suspect if you're highly specialised then there's plenty of jobs, but for any kind of generalist, the pickings are slim (regardless of the jobs advertised)

    I suspect I'll be moving on again soon. I've had far more success with queries to jobs in Germany/France than I have here. I suspect that's going to be the case for most young people too... unless you want to work at a low paid retail/hospitality position, with few protections or benefits.

    Theres something extra stinky about this situation and it better be tackled head on immediately because disaster lays ahead.

    It won't be tackled. There's a cycle to these things.. enough prosperity for a while, so people forget what went before, and then, it swings back again... affecting others. It's easily ignored/dismissed.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 

  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭ techman1

    Well if people are choosing not to work in low wage jobs and just stay on benefits, it means two things wages in these jobs are too low and need to rise, this is actually happening, secondly benefits are too good and need to be reduced. Twenty years ago the gap between the dole and low wage jobs was much higher, even the lowest paid job would pay twice as much as the dole back then, but the dole was very low as well nowhere like today.

    The very generous PUP payments also exaggerated this "great resignation" , the government now seems keen to shut this down completely now though

  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭ funkyzeit100

    I 100% agree with the luck of having a home owner all to yourself, it's the difference between success and failure in life now.

    However, I don't agree with the intelligence thing. You could be the smartest thing since sliced bread, but there is poor correlation between intelligence and earnings.

    The "markets" are beyond screwed. There's a bloke in a city area in the states of whom I know, and he has bought up 6 of the big waterfront properties, just for himself. No family or anything, one single bloke. He has essentially blocked access to what should be a public amenity. Imagine that with the likes of bull island in Dublin. The inequality taking it's grip everywhere is out of control.

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,642 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha

    This seems to be it. What minimum wage says to me is that my employer would knock a euro per hour off my salary if the minimum wage were to be lowered. People seem to think that they can have anything they want without paying for it. You get one life. Why waste it doing a crap job for the minimum legal compensation.

    I only say "crap job" because jobs with low wages and terrible managers are crap jobs. I'm not suggesting at all that jobs like caring and hospitality are crap. There seems to be less and less point in working or trying to be better when house prices soar so much faster than wages grow. My mate bought a place in a sh*tehole in Dublin for just over 300k and then sold it 2 years later for nearly 400k. It's beyond a joke.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith

  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭ funkyzeit100

    Yeah there is something that just doesn't add up about it all. Which is what you get with broken policies.

    On the one hand you have loads of people out of work, but then they tell you we have full employment. They'll say we have "skill shortages" that are never defined, and that we need more migration into the country, yet there's an affordability crisis looming, an existing health system crisis and an existing housing crisis and so on.

    It's mickey mouse "rob Paul to pay Peter" scenarios left right and center. No wonder people are just bowing out.

  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭ funkyzeit100

    I know what you mean, but my inclination is that it is the "top" that needs to be tackled.

    It isn't wages decreasing that's the problem, it's the rapidly increasing costs.

    You'll never catch up with a runaway scenario like that just by throwing more magic money at it, you need to stop and then reduce the factors increasing cost.

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,642 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha

    I've no idea how you're getting interest in France or Germany. I saw a job advertised in Galway of all places. While it'd be nice to be near the parents, with my luck they'd go bust and then I'm stuck in the west of Ireland on benefits.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith

  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭ funkyzeit100

    That was a friend who brought up McDonald's as an example. I wouldn't criticise the company, they seem perfectly fine for what they are.

    The problem is that it isn't worth working in them.

    These types of jobs should mostly be the mainstay of students working their way through college, but they can't get a look in either because they've been soaked up, hence the 60%+ unemployment in youth. Yet they'll still be expected to pay the rents to attend college.

    But as you say, there is a rapidly increasing amount of people in all sorts of jobs that just don't make economic sense. It's just getting far, far too expensive, and it's pretty much all down to housing.

    It's bad news from every angle.

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,170 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78

    modern political and economic ideologies have failed, its time for us to dig our heads out of the sand, and sort it, or we face the likelihood of serious conflicts!

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,747 ✭✭✭ BrianD3

    I think various diverse online "movements" which existed before Covid are relevant here. ERE/FIRE, MGTOW, Incels, anti consumerists. Also the gig economy and digital nomadism could be factors.

    Both a 20 year old who is struggling in every aspect of his life and a 40 year old millionaire who has been saving and investing for years may be encouraged to resign or not bother with traditional paid employment. Covid has been a massive disruption and may well have pushed people over the edge and changed their outlook on life.

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,058 ✭✭✭✭ osarusan

    A new kind of worker has emerged in Japan over the past 2-3 decades, called a 'freeter'. In one sense, it means anybody who does not work solely for a single company, so it could refer to something similar to a freelancer, who would still work hard and make good money.

    But, more commonly, it refers to people who have (by choice or having no alternative) opted out of the rat race and the 'permanent corporate slave for the next 45 years, start a family, get a mortgage' culture, and just work a small number of part-time stress-free jobs, earning just enough to get by and giving them time to do stuff they enjoy (as much as they can afford at least).

    More possible in Japan than here thanks to an abundance of cheap places for rent - here'a a shoebox in a reasonably central part of Yokohama (same suburb I lived in 20 years ago, that's why I looked it up) for €335 a month, and there is much less aversion to such tiny apartments than there would be here. But then, here in Ireland, the safety net provides for much more than in Japan, so maybe it evens out that way.

    I can understand how a person, especially a young and/or single childless person might look at rising costs of almost everything, and look at people 10-15 years older still scrambling to scrape a deposit together, and say 'F**k this, what's the point' and settle for/settle into an unemployed/part-time worker lifestyle.

  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭ funkyzeit100

    I'd imagine that a lot of these freelancers are there through lack of options rather than choice.

    The difference being, they won't be happy about it. They may frame their outcomes as a choice in some sort of rationalisation, but it probably isn't a choice at all in my opinion.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭ I see sheep

    Isn't social welfare crap in the US? What are they doing for money?

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,170 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78

    ....its more closer to what welfare in the states! robbing and other criminal acts, food banks, and addictions.....

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,501 ✭✭✭ joseywhales

    I think its only the start of inflation, in fairness in the eighties they lived through paying 65% income tax and 17% unemployment, hopefully we wont see that again. The weird thing is the stock market continues to rise despite the discounted future cash flows due to inflation. There's no fundamentals in the market anymore, for example the promise of an electric vehicle company puts its market cap higher than the likes of ford. Despite the fact that I don't see the general population affording EV, nor does the infrastructure support it. The US government appears to be supporting liquidity and cheap debt. I think its a false market. I don't blame capitalism for this, I blame government interference in the market. I don't blame left or right because they have both done it in their time in the seat. It only benefits those who participate in capital markets and those people are already wealthy enough to invest. It seems it pays for governments to support the interests of the welathy

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  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭ funkyzeit100

    Yeah exactly, take a stroll through some of their cities and it looks like you've stepped into the apocalypse.

    Their social welfare system barely creaks by, but the homelessness and general crime is through the roof, no matter what they decide to report or not.

    I know several people and families that are actively looking to move back here, jacking in well paid jobs to have a "low standard of life" as they put it, rather than the possibility of no standard of life over there.

    But as I tell them, what's happening there is progressing rapidly here too. The Ireland they left is gone.

  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭ funkyzeit100

    I'd be extremely wary of taking reported numbers as anything other than PR.

    There are absolutely things that are worse off now than in the 80's. But besides that, nobody cares so much about the past, it's about their future that they care, and it's looking bleak.

    As for it paying off for governments to create this kind of society, they'll find out that it doesn't pay in the end. Everyone will find out that it doesn't pay in the end.

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,170 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78

    ...the abilities of the market in providing us with all our needs is a fantasy, made up by humans, based on pure sh1te ideas that has no basis in reality, such as 'rational expectations' etc, its time for us to grow up and accept this reality, or we risk completely destroying ourselves. current inflation issues are more to do with serious supply side issues, than money creation, as central banks having been trying for years now to gain inflation, and have been largely unable to do so, but we have successfully caused a hyper inflation situation in most, if not all of our asset markets, by encouraging and promoting whats called fire sector lead economies, or also called financialisation of our economies, this approach is now starting to collapse, so, go us! yes, both the left and right have been engaging in these ideologies and beliefs, so really, go us!

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ klaz

    Well, I applied for jobs throughout mainland Europe, and I've had interviews with many of the places I applied to. I'm shortlisted for a variety of those positions. Whereas I've had zero interviews in Ireland, and just a few emails back acknowledging the applications. Jobs being advertised isn't the problem. I'm qualified for a wide range of positions, but there's just no response to the applications.

    I was frustrated before with the situation, but now I'm just resigned. Europe is fine for being close to the parents, as long as another lockdown doesn't happen.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭ LorenzoB

    I see as the problem, welfare too high. But has to be high because costs to live are so much. But costs to live are because the government interferes with rents and living costs.

    Rents are high because of low competition. Low competition is caused by government regulating landlords out of the market.

    Living costs are high because of government putting taxes on fuels, and then charging vat on taxes. Everything is delivered by fuels (heat, light, transport, food) even battery cars are delivered and fueled by diesel trucks and power stations

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,170 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78

    i know of an irish family, that has done very well over there, has recently moved to spain, it has become too bad for them, the father said he didnt see a future for his kids there, scary stuff really.

    yes, ireland has dramatically changed in the last few decades, but thankfully we havent taken on this extreme form of capatalism, such as america, and i suspect we re all starting to realise, something is very wrong with it, we re at a critical turning point right now, hopefully we do what needs to be done, which i think we are and will do

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ klaz

    Welfare isn't really the problem though. The numbers on welfare are relatively low, especially in comparison to other periods in our past. The issue of people needing welfare supplements while working and earning a wage is a bigger problem, but still, the numbers involved are low.

    But I'd agree with the rest of what you said. Might as well throw in the costs that will increase due to covid and our governments responses to it. That's going to increase taxes substantially across the board, and the reaction to covid is the new normal now... increased costs (beyond what is currently happening) are going to be a fact of life.

    There really needs to be a greater focus by governments on building up profitable small-medium sized businesses in this country.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,170 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78

    ...again, this is more so the free market libertarian view of whats going on, even though not completely wrong, you re also not completely right either. we need to get over this idea of so called government 'interference', this type of language only truly came about in the last few decades, from the so called thatcher/regean era, effectively attempting to demonise welfare classes, and the 'interactions' of governments. since this era, the cost of living has sky rocketed, this has been done from a multitude of approaches, i.e. demonise welfare classes, attack government and state regulations, advocate for de-regulation of markets, particularly in relation to finance, and more so with the fire sectors in general. all this in turn has inflated asset markets into what can only be described as hyper inflationary at this stage, most obvious being in property and land markets, baring in mind, asset ownership is heavily skewed, leading to rapidly rising inequality.

    again, you re overly criticising governments, even though governments have indeed played a critical role in creating these outcomes, as both the left and right have been advocating for these approaches in running our societies and economies, yes they have indeed helped cause it, but not entirely

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,501 ✭✭✭ joseywhales

    I am working in the US in one of the largest aum hedge funds in the world. I work as a developer in quant trading. I have been over here for a decade and we have a house, good chunk of retirement and no debts. The lifestyle is good, I'm glad I left Ireland post recession, it definitely worked for me. However, if we have a kid, there's no chance I am staying here, I don't want to raise children in this absolute mad house. My only choice here would be private education and I don't want a entitled kid, nor do I want the cyber bullying or the materialism and the superficial culture here.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik

    I can see where they are coming from.

    We are going to live in Portugal as soon as this covid business is over.

    My brother is already there.

    Im just retiring in my early 50s :)

    Why? Because im sick to death of paying 50% of all the overtime or income from other jobs I do. Ive had enough.

    Then watching other family members who never worked a day in their life have all this time off, plenty of money and a house worth €500k handed to them.

    Fcuk that. Im out.