Cash only businesses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187786#Comment_118187786

Not necessarily. It depends on the type of business and the fees for card machines vs what they actually make themselves. Its no joke trying to make a living as a sole trader. Also if you give receipts to people there is a trail for the tax man so you have to be legitimate.

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218250#Comment_118218250

Totally disagree with this. Using a phone or tapping a card is very quick, takes seconds for an approval to come through.

This compared to people looking for change, staff putting it in till, counting change, handing back etc. Cash transactions are definitely slower.

As for not knowing how much you have, most people who don't use cash just simply look at their banking app and it tells them straight away and the available balance always states the balance after pending transactions.

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218850#Comment_118218850

So that's a problem with a small group of people who are ill disciplined with money. This just means that cash is better option for them but this not mean this is the case overall as most people can manager their money better than those.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219485#Comment_118219485

The problem is more than a small group of people. I have no objection to people using cards or phones to pay bills. However it dose lead to more discretionary spending by a larger section of the population. Some of these then cannot understand how other save and they cannot.

More and more society is having problems with online gambling whether it with Paddy Power or the lottery. Online spending and card use can develop the same issues. Now we cannot change it but because of it more and more people become dependent on the state to provide more services.

On the the other hand then we have card aficionados who start this idea that anyone dealing in cash must be at tax evasion. At present you have a huge push by some to outlaw or do away with cash.

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219600#Comment_118219600

I agree about online gambling but that is nothing to do with the cash v card debate as the use of cards on the internet has worked alongside cash for over 20 years now.

enricoh

I was in the builder providers and the girl informed the queue that the phone lines iirc were down and the card machines weren't working.

Half the queue put down their stuff n left- great job, less queuing for me!

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218250#Comment_118218250

boardlady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195722#Comment_118195722

Very good point. There are actually few opportunities to spend your illicitly gained cash. Revenue know how much the weekly groceries should be costing you, the fuel in your car. And how much are you really going to pour into new furniture, clothing and nights out? If you go on a holiday with the cash, you are leaving yourself exposed as you will probably have some sort of a computer trail suggesting you are abroad. It is actually quite difficult to spend it. Those of you who are self-employed know how much of your spending is actually back into your business and you can't do that either with your cash! Most folks are operating on tight enough margins, and often find they 'need' that cash for a bill or other and may even find themselves having to expose it. It is simply not worth Revenue's while chasing every small business who is skimming the odd hundred here and there. They are operating, often employing, and generally contributing to - and not draining - the economy overall.

boardlady

"some student taking three times as long to use tap and go. People cry that they can't afford a house but use a system whereby they can't even ascertain how much they have in the bank on a given day because there's dozens of pending payments not showing."

I don't think this is correct. My bank balance goes down with every tap I make. I can look at my 'quick balance' at the press of a button and it will have subtracted the transaction I made seconds ago. I know this wasn't always the case, but AIB are up to the minute now. I think tapping a card is often faster than the oul biddy fiddling counting out the 10 cent coins 😆

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219958#Comment_118219958

"Tax evasion benefits everybody and is a good thing" is some take! 🙄

It's simple, really. If someone is evading tax, someone else has to pay for it. That ends up being PAYE workers. This only stops being true if the overall exchequer returns are consistently in surplus, and ours never have been.

"If I don't let Jimmy the barber have €10 cash once a month he'll go under and I'll have to drive 10km to the next town" multiplied out by thousands of evaders is costing you a few hundred a year in higher taxes.

Yes, it's true Revenue don't generally go after the small fry, because it makes no sense to do so. That's why in the 90s they moved loads of staff away from PAYE and into the self-assessment and audit areas. What they do do is look at particular sectors and come at things from other directions. Yes, some of the reforms in the taxi area were because regulations and access to the profession needed to be updated. Others were because Revenue knew they were losing loads in tax evasion to a cash-only business - it's not hard to work out when all of the tax returns in an industry show drivers' profits are magically within a really small range and were coming from only a handful of tax agents. Result: much better tamper-proof meters with annual checks combined with awareness campaigns.

boardlady

I am not advocating "Tax evasion benefits everybody and is a good thing". I just see it as being one of those things that is taken into consideration in the grand scheme of things. A bit like the 'dole-for-life' folks. There are always going to be expenses and costs that cannot be alleviated - so instead they are mitigated.

jester77

I avoid places that don't take card. Trying to find an ATM and then one that doesn't charge fees is too much hassle.

Plus with contactless it's much faster, more secure for both parties and it's easier to budget when you can see where your money went.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118188143#Comment_118188143

why do the revenue repair card machines?

or is you're assuming that the place not taking cards = tax dodging?

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219892#Comment_118219892

They must be a BoI customer since they're on about transactions not showing

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220331#Comment_118220331

In villages and small townes right accross the country small business have gone to the wall. There is a lot of villages without a shop many no longer have hairdressers, barbers , chippers,very few have a butcher and the last bastion of businesses the local pubs are either closing or under pressure in these area's.

So TBH whatever it takes to keep them open I am ok with. If it becomes super profitable then others will start to open. However in the last 15-20 years in a local village, we went from three shops to one, there is one hairdressers on the street, the butcher closed down,( nearest one is ten miles and that is in a SuperValu) a barber opened just before COVID and he is barely keeping the doors open. There is a chipper, the shop used to do takeaways as well up until 10 pm but closed this down when they lost there last chef/cook 3-4 years ago.

There was three pubs one closed in 2010. It sold the licience a few years ago as it has problems from leasing it. Another one is up for sale at 200k, for the last three months, there is not exactly a rush to buy it from what we know. As far as we know it was for sale on the quite for the last 4-5 years.

I was a PAYE worker for 40 years, I am a farmer for the last twenty and own two small rental properties. Everything goes and went through the books as all my sales or rental are on record either from a factory or a tenant.

When I first started out 40 years ago I was like you. But I learned from the fallout of the last crash. It is open to anyone to start a small business and if you do you too will skim a few bob a week. As a self employed person you have to pay all you own holidays and bank holidays. If you are a painter, decorator, tiler or a myriad of other things people get a heart attack if you charge 200/ day and crop and cry if you are charging 300+( which is the minimum you need as a self employed person to have a wage of 8-900/ week), none of these people want you inside there door from the 3rd week in December to early January.

You pay for your own bank holidays, if you want two weeks off during the summer you have to allow/ pay for that as well. If you get on and employ someone, you must pay for all there holidays, bank holidays and is it 7-8%, employer PRSI,as well as extra public liability.

If you think it's unfair you can always go out and become a sole trader. After 3-4 months, or definately after the first tax year you be hoping you can take in a bit of cash to skim. But for some business's it not possible.

boardlady

I am PAYE, himself is S/E - I see both sides. As @Bass Reeves said, go out and start up your own business and you will see how hard it can be. I don't begrudge the PAYE I fork out - it means I walk in and out of my job and do not sweat the background operations. I have sick pay, annual leave and all the other incidentals my husband does not get. Like most things in life, it is swings and roundabouts and not worth the 'I pay my taxes' cry.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220911#Comment_118220911

"Skim a few bob a week" - it's not a mere "few bob a week", €10 here or €20 there, though, is it? Earlier you were talking about €150. A week. €8,000 a year!

So this bears repeating: "The €150/week your barber friend is skimming off tax free is €7,800 a year. That has to be made up by PAYE workers who don't get to decide things are a bit tight coming up to Christmas, I'll just keep €100 off my PAYE, PRSI, LPT and USC this week. I have to earn over €14,000 to pay the €7.8k your mate has dodged."

Or, in fact, you do. Your tax-dodging mate is stealing from your pocket.

Self-employed painter-decorators, plumbers, electricians, hairdressers, taxi drivers, etc., would not be self-employed if it wasn't lucrative, simple as. As the jobs still need doing, and there's a market for them, they'd end up working for services companies. But no, it's earning them enough that they continue doing it, even though - gasp - they have to cover their own holidays. So you budget for 46 or 48 or 50 weeks work in a year, and work out your charges accordingly. Sure things like COVID can come along and feck things up, but that fecked things up for everyone.

I think your estimates of how much some self-employed trades earn may be a little out-of-date, too. I'd love to know where I could get a decent painter for €200/day, or even €300! A plumber charges €100 to walk in the front door, before he's even had a look at the problem.

Small village and town shops and businesses closing down when previously they were profitable is a different issue, and nothing to do with tax. People vote with their feet, and their vote has been to go do a big shop once a week in a shopping centre rather than visit several small local shops a few times a week.

Mad_maxx

most eastern european tradesmen work exclusively for cash , at least on small jobs ?

McGarnigle2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219473#Comment_118219473

Card payment- often requires the staff member to press a code to authorise the machine.

For small items (a fillet roll, a can of coke, a McDonalds meal) I'd typically have the exact amount, or nearly the exact amount, waiting and ready to go. I'd have walked out the door before the machine would be ready.

Not to mention many places, particularly most chippers and Chinese, keep the card machine well behind the counter, you could be blindly tapping for who knows what amount.

As for the update, I found myself without a note on me on a Friday a few months ago (never used to happen but fully stocked ATM's are becoming like hen's teeth lately) and had to lower myself to paying with a tap and go in the offy. No change to my available balance, nothing neither deducted nor showing as pending. By Tuesday I'm wondering if something went wrong and I walked out with the cans*. Finally, Thursday, when I'd forgotten about it, available balance is deducted by X euro (AIB app)

If you're good with not knowing your exact balance for nearly a full week after making a payment good luck to ya.

*: like most people I often repay the move into forced self service checkouts in certain shops by helping myself to the odd freebie I eh accidentally forgot to scan. If they expect us to do their jobs for them the least they can do is remunerate us.

beggars_bush

Certain demographics only use cash and are especially flush midweek or once a month with cash

The fees charged by banks are criminal for each transaction.

Sum up and square should be used by more small businesses

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221788#Comment_118221788

First of all HE IS NOT MY MATE OR FRIEND. Yes every body has to budget. But for a minimum of 6 weeks per year every PAYE worker get paid when not working, if you are in the public service or a lot of MNC's you will have a few days more.

You probably get excited as well about the 2 euro I leave him as a tip. I suppose the young waiter or waitress getting 20-40 euros a week on tips should pay tax USC and PRSI on that as well.

Plumbers are a law unto themselves. You find a lot of fairly decent painters for 200/ day cash. Not that I employ them I do all my one painting. I presume you are from Dublin, prices there are more expensive than the rest of the country.

However for the rest of the country it trying to keep the last few services we have.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118223144#Comment_118223144

First of all HE IS NOT MY MATE OR FRIEND. Yes every body has to budget. But for a minimum of 6 weeks per year every PAYE worker get paid when not working, if you are in the public service or a lot of MNC's you will have a few days more.

Apologies. Your acquaintance/complete stranger is helping himself to €7,800/year that you have to pay for.

Teachers get 2 or 3 months holidays; no other public servant gets more than 30 days holidays, and, as has been pointed out, at that stage we're talking swings and roundabouts. Self-employed person has to budget for six weeks unpaid holidays and builds that into their pricing. On the other hand, I have to pay for my lunch, and my laptop, and my car, and its running costs, whereas my self-employed contractor friend gets those paid for by his business.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118225251#Comment_118225251

Maybe it's not such a good idea to personalise discussions about taxation.

It's not as if all PAYE people have a leeching counterpart who is taking money out of their pocket.

There are lot's of PAYE people who do a few nixers or are married to self employed persons.

And then there are many PAYE people who have no objection to purchasing goods/services under the counter so to speak.

There is a plus and minus side for both PAYE and self employed.

The lines are often blurred but the tax code implemented by Revenue is quite clear and fair for the most part.

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222546#Comment_118222546

In all my time paying cards, never seen staff member putting codes in. Most till nowadays have a card payment option and they just press that on their screen and it goes straight to the card machine without touching and customer just pays.

So you always have exact change all the time for random products, find that hard to believe and also you can't just hand it over to walk out, Most would wait for it to be counted out and agreed it's correct.

As for chippers and Chinese places, agree that they along with pubs can be guilty of not showing the screen but insist on it and they'll show it and tap. No problem.

Either way the time you're convinced in your head that you're saving is not really true and you ignore your ATM queuing times which I just don't need anymore.

As for your story about the balances, sorry, I don't believe as it always shows up in pending and it reduces your available balance.

Finally, your last story about self service tills is nothing to do with card payments as they accept cash and really there's no justification for you stealing.