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Japan won't let go of ice engine

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,083 ✭✭✭ CoBo55


    Cold engine?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭ Lantus




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,083 ✭✭✭ CoBo55




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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,450 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    Could you just imagine the inefficiency, ICE is what 40% efficient at best, maybe less with hydrogen ? then imagine all the energy needed to produce this hydrogen to be burned at an efficiency of 40% at best ?

    I suppose batteries wouldn't be needed eliminating the need for more rare earth minerals and chemicals but I do like the fact I can charge with cheap electricity or best yet free work charging. Since I got the new VW id3 I've spend maybe 10 Euros to do nearly 4000 kms.

    Via electrolysis it takes around 50-55 Kwh of electricity to produce 1 Kg of hydrogen, then it takes more energy to liquify this for transport use down to around -253 degrees, you definitely don't want to come in contact with this stuff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭ Lantus


    All good comments. The legacy car makers have a stable profitable business that they don't want to change. No doubt there is some pressure being applied to governments behind closed doors!


    Will the eu pull the teeth from eu7 under pressure? Or will cheap good quality EVs from china and tesla provide market stimulus to change regardless?



  • Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭ RainInSummer


    Never a truer word spoken.

    With you 100% on the nuclear part. I've been on about it since the early 90s.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,450 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    I reckon within 10 years Electrics will become cheap enough to render ICE worthless, thought, probably more to do with taxation, at least here in the E.U.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,450 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    The unfortunate thing is People's opinions of Nuclear in Ireland, all People can think about is Chernobyl!

    It takes years to build a Nuke plant, it will take years to debate whether we should have Nuclear in Ireland, it's really sad because we could be so much more energy dependent than we are today.

    Of course, energy won't be cheaper just because of Nuke power, the companies that run them will surely see to that but where are we going to source our energy when the rest of the planet will need huge amounts of their own energy going forward ?

    But of course, COVID and Climate change, keep talking about this daily on every single news bulletin 24x7 and on advertisements, keeps the Government free from blame and the public unaware, or keep their minds off of other issues like housing and cost of living, rising energy costs, lack of proper public transport, list goes on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭ lenny palmer


    I wonder how much tax do the Irish government take in on an electric car? What percentage per car?



  • Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭ lenny palmer


    In general I wouldn't be against nuclear, but I wouldn't trust any business running a nuclear plant. I'd barely trust the Irish government to do it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,051 ✭✭✭✭ flazio


    *checks username* Look, not all nuclear employees are like your workmates, Carl and Homer.

    It's not just accidents people are worried about. It's national security. Remember when the government sent out iodine tablets as the risk of an attack on Sellafield was deemed to be higher.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,450 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    Nuclear is one of the safest industries out there, a lot changed since 1986, certainly reactor tech. These reactors in Chernobyl were faulty anyway and supposedly measures were taken to mitigate the issues present in the ones in Chernobyl because there are still reactors of this type still in use today, one would surely hope they've been made safe.

    The Irish Government wouldn't be running it at all, they wouldn't be capable in the slightest, it would be private companies and we, the taxpayer would subsidise it.

    Some environmentalists are pro Nuclear now because they're under the impression it's the only way to save the earth and other Greens are against Nuclear power because they believe that due to the time to construct so many plants that we would pass the threshold for eternal doom and so they promote Wind and solar PV because they can be installed much easier but I stand by my argument that the energy required to replace Fossil fuels and dump it on the grid requires power that only Nuclear can generate.

    I think our own Government and all so called environmentalists greatly underestimate the amount of TWH's of electricity we will need to replace fossil fuels and that's only for a very small Island.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,815 ✭✭✭✭ Danzy


    Problem is that Nuclear is stupidly expensive to have, building and plant closure, the cost is prohibitive and nearly every other form of energy is quicker to build and multiples cheaper.


    The only one that will ever invest in nuclear power is the State, no private investor will ever touch it. Unless the State guarantees to cover the cost. How will an economy our size cover it and if we did go that route how would you force businesses to buy the electricity when it would be so undercut on the free market?????


    Unless you think we should become some Communist Shi75013. Which explains your interest in nuclear.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭ dloob


    As it happens just saw this story today

    Be interesting to see how it goes. It’s using a small sodium cooled reactor combined with molten salt heat store.

    The idea is it can also store power from renewables in the molten salt when there is a surplus of renewables and the reactor can be kept at a steady state warming the salt when demand is low.

    The molten salt tech is the same as that currently used in some solar concentrator stations.

    That said I don’t think I could ever see anything nuclear getting past the local resistance in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,815 ✭✭✭✭ Danzy


    If such experiments ever come to fruition I think people would go along eagerly at the least we'd have the ability to import it.


    It's a nice experiment though in the meantime and hopefully it will come to fruition in decades to come.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,508 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    Japan has had a category of Kei mini-cars with engines of 0.66L or less. Smaller and lower tax. It's not like they are trying to justify monster American SUV's. The ICE engine's efficiency can be improved by using the Atkinson cycle or six stroke engine.

    Converting renewable energy into fuel is still expensive and not very efficient but you don't need batteries so for low use vehicles it may work out better in the future.


    Oh and Nuclear is obsolete. Even the America, European, Japanese and Korean companies who aren't on the verge of bankruptcy take too long to build them to have any effect on climate by 2030 by which time most renewable alternatives would have paid for themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭ lenny palmer


    Was listening to Newstalk the other day and their guest was of the opinion that here in Ireland we could be and exporter of renewable energy from wind and solar. We would have an abundance of stored power. He did say that regulations would need to change to hurry the process up of building on and off shore wind farm's



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,441 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    40% is based purely on the ability of the engine to extract energy from the fuel, isn't it?

    an ICE powered car (or even an electric car) however could not even begin to dream of that level of efficiency, if you try to calculate efficiency based on how much fuel is used to carry the passengers/contents around, compared to the car itself.

    e.g. if you need to get two people weighing 150kg from A to B in a car weighing 1500kg, 90% of the fuel use is just moving the car, and that's not taking engine inefficiencies into account.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik


    I think the opposite. I see electricity prices rising astronomically in a few years. It will be the number one tax earner in the western world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,450 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    Nuclear is expensive but I'm not even sure it can be calculated the amount of energy that is in Oil/Diesel/Gas/Petrol and to put all this including home heating on the grid, it's a mind boggling calculation and while Nuclear is expensive a plant can last 50 years.

    A 1 Gw Nuclear plant, well, lets look at some figures, any by all means correct my maths, it's not my strongest point for sure.

    An average wind turbine is 2.5 Mw give or take. 2.5 into 1000 = 400 turbines for 1 Gw of power until the wind doesn't blow. Now if I remember correctly we have almost hit 5 Gw peak on the grid ? currently ?

    now lets say we have 100,000 diesel cars, and they all switch to electric, average consumption would be around 18 Kwh/100 Kms or 5.55 Kms per Kwh of electricity.

    If those cars are to drive 15,000 Kms a year they would require 2,700 Kwh of electricity times 100,000 = 270,200,000 TWH of electricity extra on the grid in a year. Now is that GWH or TWR at this point ? it's a hell of a lot and has to come from somewhere. I mean an absolute mind boggling amount of electricity.

    This doesn't even tip the surface, that's only 100,000 cars not including the total fleet of cars/trucks/vans, imagine the amount of energy a truck needs ? this is where I believe the future will be for Hydrogen, HGV but it takes a huge amount of energy to produce hydrogen and when demand drops at night we could produce our own hydrogen by Nuclear at night, though probably there wouldn't be much drop in energy at night any more if so many vehicles are plugged in charging.

    This doesn't include the heating of homes and businesses though gas boilers could be replaced with hydrogen, they are or were testing this I think in Scotland sending hydrogen down domestic gas pipes with modified boilers in the homes, again, generating hydrogen takes a lot of energy.

    I don't think our economy can afford not to go with the Nuclear option in the long term as the cost of not going Nuclear would be too great, I think if the green loonies think it's too late for Nuclear to save the earth which is a load of cock and bull if we leave it a lot longer it will certainly be too late for Ireland's economy of there is a big move to electric, we're dreaming if we think we can just dump our energy on the European mainland and suck their electrons because they'll all have exactly the same issues as we will if they can't find a proper alternative to fossil fuels!

    Our own Government are not interested, they're there for the short term, for the pension and are letting so called medical professionals run/ruin the country and they will get on the bandwagon gladly because it steers away from other serious issues, same with climate change, Ryan has spend 1.5 million or something or will spend it on climate awareness campaigns to bombard people with climate change nonsense for the next god knows how long on radio and tv, the new religion, again, talking about it but not doing anything about it if they believe it but whether we believe in a climate crisis or not we will in the future have a very serious energy crisis. We also have a public transport crisis that's continuing to get ignored because the Government don't want to do anything, their only answer is that "it's only through taxation will people change" what a load of nonsense, give people the proper alternatives before you saddle them with extortionate amounts of tax which they already are and think that even more and more tax is the only solution without actually making the Governement do anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,450 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    I read recently where some idiot university Professor rejected this exact project saying that it's too late for nuclear to save the earth what a load of bullshit. This is exactly what the world knows and Gates knows it as much as I dislike Gates I do agree with him on Nuclear power if for different reasons.

    MSR reactor tech was around in the 1950's believe it or not but abandoned by the U.S military because they could not get the correct type of waste for Nuclear weapons so they chose the current Nuclear tech still in use today. ,

    This type of reactor can be made much more cheaply and I believe even down as little as 1 mw in size. Amazing!



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,450 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    I'm not sure how feasible Off shore is in Atlantic waters ? How many wind Turbines can we litter the Island with though either land or off shore, they are ugly but especially so is Solar Fields, I've seen them in Germany, big ones and looking at black fields is really unpleasant.

    + renewables are unpredictable, Every roof top in Ireland could have solar PV before we destroy the country side turning green fields black, that's an awful lot of Kwh that can potentially go to the grid but there is no feed in tariff, ridiculous, so there is no incentive for me to put solar pv on my roof because dumping excess energy does not appeal to me because dumping energy is wasting energy that I don't need to use in the first place. And I read recently where those homes that share a transformer can only have 1 home export energy but that's funny because any home can connect the energy to the grid so how come only 1 home can actually get paid for the energy ?

    In Germany my outlaws have 14 Kwp of solar PV on the roof and 3 phase to the house, in Ireland we're handicapped as usual with single phase and poxy 5.5 Kw limit for exporting to the grid but more effort should be made to allow someone close to a 3 phase supply to be able to connect cheap and export as much as they wish. There's a 10 Kva line over the bottom part of my garden, this could be easily tapped into but the expensive would be entirely on me and wouldn't be worth it unless I had a lot of solar to put on the grid but I have the space for 20-30 Kw/p and more, there's no reason it can't go straight to a new transformer on the pole and on to the grid except cost and probably lack of interest by the ESB.

    While more renewable energy is good and quicker to add to the grid they need to be adding at least 400 2.5 Mw of turbines to make 1 GW and that's 1 GW peak at full production on a windy day is that sustainable long term ? how many can we keep putting up ? not to mention the amount of solar pv needed ?

    I think at some point we will realise that renewables will not work long term to replace fossil fuels but by that time what will it cost the economy and the taxpayer especially if we have to continue to rely on foreign fossil fuels ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭ Lantus


    Nuclear probably not a realistic venture but running gas or coal to pick up shortfall from renewable isn't so bad. Just remember Ireland's CO2 contribution is 0.11% globally and cars a smaller take of that. There are 5 countries accounting for 60%. The eu is roughly 8ish and again just 3 or 4 states account for half of that.


    But this is a technological problem not a political one. If Tesla can make a 25k car then the market will resolve. The issue with elec power will be localised production. Panels are continuing to become cheaper and soon flexible and semi transparent. There won't be any one thing. It will be multiple efforts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,450 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    No I meant "electrics" as in electric cars will become a lot cheaper.

    Cost of electricity rising "astronomically" ? not sure, businesses and households have to use electricity if electricity is to power everything can't get too expensive.

    Chances are if we don't do everything now to ensure our energy independence in the future we'll probably struggle to keep the lights on and costs down. I don't think anyone is counting the many extra TWHrs worth of electricity we're actually going to need the more heating and transport, business in general moves to electricity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 387 ✭✭ sh81722


    I don't buy that .11% thing: We are all in the United States of Europe|World. Same analogy would be if people in some medium sized city in US decided that they are not going to do anything as their consumption matters feck all for the US emissions.

    Ireland is one of the top European contibutors for CO2 per capita and that's pretty lame seen as it's not cold here and there is hardly any heavy industry. There are so many low hanging fruits for becoming CO2 neutral here: We have hardly any local stuff to burn anyway and all needs to be imported (ok, some gas reserves do exist) so it's a no brainer to use the always windy Southern/Western Atlantic coast for domestic energy. Keep the money here instead of giving it to Norwegians, Russian Oligarghs and Middle Eastern Sheiks.

    PS. That reminds me: Better get my own house in order. It could really do some extra attic insulation. No brainer really and the longer I wait the more money I waste.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,601 ✭✭✭✭ BorneTobyWilde


    Todays engines are not the problem, it's all the engines before that. The US still builds huge SUVs that have v12s and do 3 miles to the gallon. I think the US needs to wake up, not Japan.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,081 ✭✭✭✭ DaCor


    An average wind turbine is 2.5 Mw give or take. 2.5 into 1000 = 400 turbines for 1 Gw of power 

    Jaysus where are you getting 2.5MW from. That's tiny. Even the Arklow bank off shore turbines built in 2003 were 3.6MW each. The latest off shore turbines are around 16MW so 63 turbines versus your 400. Granted onshore turbines will always be smaller than offshore, but still, 2.5MW is a piddly little thing

    Note, 16MW is just the latest and as more money is being pumped into offshore, expect that number to keep rising as there are not the same limitations to scale offshore as onshore



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